CARE OUT LOUD
Anna Biley Interview Part 2
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Mary Coughlin: [00:00:00] I love that. I love what you just articulated because there are so many traumatic situations. You know, I mean globally for sure, but within healthcare And for us as professionals, and I kind of, you know, including myself there, even though I'm not practicing, but you know, just in general for us to not have the skills to not have the because there is a skill component for sure, you know, I mean, I think a lot of what I learned, you know moving through the care test coach program was really unlocking skills to cultivate that the caring science to really learn how to express it and to speak it, speak the language that initially felt a little clunky, you know, I mean it, you know, like learning a new language, but over time it starts to flow and feel more natural with the language.
And I think the language of trauma Is similar. We don't use it. We don't like to talk about the bad stuff. We don't like to talk about [00:01:00] dying. We want to cure everybody and really unlocking that piece for both the individual who's enduring the experience, you know, when they don't have the language. to understand what they're going through, you can just feel like I'm going crazy, that will I ever be back to normal, whatever normal is but also for those folks that are, you know, ideally there to support you and, and walk alongside you in this journey.
If we don't have the language to describe that journey, you know, we can fall short and miss opportunities to help individuals move through it.
Anna Biley: It does, I think the thing that comes up when what you've been talking about again, you know, and when we go back to caring science and the Caritas processes is that the idea of having of listening with a non judgmental approach and, and when people are in trauma and and bereaved
People expect you [00:02:00] to kind of get over it within a couple of weeks, like, oh yeah, you'll be fine. And when you're not fine, everyone disappears. And people judge you. People, you know, yeah, people judge. And if one thing that I've learned through my experience of the last few years is, is that I judge less now, you know, because I always think, what is that person going through that's brought them to this point?
Yeah. And the feedback I've had from a few people when they've kind of read it. Yeah. Those are my secrets is, is around that is kind of going, wow, we didn't understand this. It's so complicated. Right. Oh, this is, yeah. These people are going through a lot. Yeah. And this idea of just not, not judging because you know, people who were showing up when they're sick and they're frightened and their loved ones are sick and frightened.[00:03:00]
It's, it's the most terrifying experience and it's traumatic and it triggers past. experiences. So don't judge, you know, this, you know, this non judgmental approach that that Karen Siles talks about. It's very powerful.
Mary Coughlin: Super powerful. But it, it's also, I mean, for me too, like you don't even realize you're judging sometimes, you know, it's like, it's almost like this default mode.
Until you start to notice. What it is that you're doing, right? It's that whole thing about going within and observing your own responses, your own behaviors, your own language, and paying attention to it. Because I think a lot of us, I'll say me, you know I just, you know, I, I always feel like I'm operating from my best intention, but I don't know what I don't know.
So, you know, You know, unless I get curious and you use that word a lot, you know, when we first started talking and I love that [00:04:00] word getting curious about what it is that we're observing, but also getting curious about what it is that we're feeling, what are we feeling about, you know, what we're observing, what are we feeling about what we're feeling in the moment, and really exploring that so that we can become more attuned to and aligned with it.
Our own inner wisdom. I think at the end of the day, that's the thing that's going to help guide us to our next right move our next right. And, you know, creation with another to help them on their own journey. But, but that's not everybody doesn't operate from that place right.
Anna Biley: I think one of the essential things about self care is. Is that kind of not judging ourselves as well. Those carry task processes that apply to us, you know, practice loving [00:05:00] kindness to self and other, a nonjudgmental approach to self and other, you know, and that's part of self care is, is and also that kind of, which is tough and I'm not good at this, but there's kind of like, we're not perfect.
Like you say, you know, we're, we're going to make mistakes. But being kind to ourselves and forgiving ourselves because we've, we've come from a good place with it and we might have got it wrong. But, you know, can we forgive ourselves? And you know, that's a huge thing. And I, I, that's a big part of my.
Self care at the moment is this ability to forgive myself for lots of things.
Mary Coughlin: I, I, I, you're making me think too. I mean, I was thinking a little bit about Carl Jung, you know about the second half of life, you know, and it's all about really kind of going [00:06:00] within. But wouldn't it be wonderful and I think there's definitely an opportunity for us to more overtly.
A culture, the younger generations, you know, younger nurses, younger healthcare professionals, teachers, humans in general, about this, the importance of self care and, you know, and self care. I mean, it's, it's fun to go on vacations. It's fun to, you know, eat chocolates and lay on the couch and watch TV.
You can call that self care, but it's much more, much deeper than that. And that those are skills that we need to hone young in life, you know, and I think that that will help us avert a lot of the pain and anguish that we experience and regret and shame, you know, all that heavy stuff. That's oftentimes a consequence of us not really knowing how to truly honor and love ourselves as a starting point for our relationships with [00:07:00] others,
Anna Biley: you know.
But it's hard. It's hard. And we're, we're just learning this stuff.
And I've talked to a couple of, of nurses recently, you know, online and, you know, they just come online and say, help us, help us, tell us what to do. You know, because there is so much distress and, and You know, when everyone's distressed, when everyone's working at this sort of level, how can you help other people, you know, so, so that's very isolating in itself.
Yeah. You know, and that's why we try and build what we call this Caritas community. You know, this, just this place for people to just come and And be supported and [00:08:00] talk the language of compassion and just kind of just shift that try and shift kind of energy around it all. Yeah,
Mary Coughlin: it almost feels to though that you know we've got so these are all the legacy people these are the people that are in the field right now and they're They're struggling with you know, oppressive cultures, oppressive environments environments that don't that aren't inherently compassionate.
And then we're training new, you know, nurses to come into the field. Hopefully, hopefully we're able to recruit nurses to come into the field. Do you think we're going to get to a place at least in nursing where there is more integration of this, you know, the concept of human caring science? I mean I'm thinking of a quote from the, the 2018 book from Watson Unitary Caring Science.
And she meant, she mentions about if nursing doesn't really [00:09:00] embrace. I'm really paraphrasing this but like embrace, you know, the real human dimensions of our work, then we could be subsumed by other disciplines you don't need nursing then if you're just thinking it's a checklist kind of a thing, then There's something really missing and if we don't honor that and own it, it will it'll disappear and and nursing could ostensibly disappear.
I mean that that was such a bold statement to read that definitely made me worry. What do you think?
Anna Biley: Well, I think it's really interesting I think it was quite shocking statement, isn't it. Yeah, but I
I'm not sure about this. And I'm probably in a minority here, but I, I do have a lot of hope for nursing, actually. And, [00:10:00] and my youngest son, he's 21, and he's going to start his nursing degree in September. So he's, he's off to do that. And, you know, I look at this younger generation and I don't know what it's like in the States, you know, but, but here there is a lot of consciousness around the environment, the climate emergency, and, and therefore this kind of consciousness about connection, you know, the connection, we're connected and what we do makes a difference.
And And, and
I think the other kind of thing that gives me hope is that they. They're more courageous than I was at [00:11:00] 20 on calling things out. They'll call things out. They don't, they'll call bullying out. They, they, they, they won't have it. Wow. And. And so in a way, I think they're further down the path than, than perhaps I was, well, I know I was at 20 and, and and so that gives me a lot of hope, but I think it's there.
It's their world. It's a different world. And all the kind of digital inclusion and the technology and the AI and, and all that that's going on. That's their world. And that's for them. They'll work it out and they'll manage it.
In their way. Yeah. And I, I don't know. I don't know what it's going to be like when I'm 80 and need hospital treatment, whether I'll be treated [00:12:00] by a robot or not. I don't know. I don't know, but I do have hope. I do have a lot of hope. That's beautiful. And I talk to and... The things that I come across from nursing students, you know, they are as committed, they are as compassionate, they are going it, they have the same values that, that I talk about in my book that I had when I was 20, they're talking about the same stuff.
So that there's a lot there, I think there's still a lot there.
Mary Coughlin: All right. You've allayed my anxiety. That, I love that, that feels...
Anna Biley: Yeah. And that's kind of part of the, the kind of thing about my husband's work and his kind of nursing legacy, really, that he's dying. And I [00:13:00] then wrote this book, you know, that, that maybe it's just a little bit of something that might help guide someone along the way.
And that's, yeah, very powerful. I just, I just hope that that's the case.
Mary Coughlin: I know it is. I know, I believe it is. And I, I, I love that you're sharing this and I appreciate, you know, the depth of vulnerability that you've shared with us. I just have a couple more questions for you, Anna. If you're hanging in with me, go for it.
So when you when I sent out the invitation and I told you what the name of the podcast was, that it was care out loud. What did you have any thoughts about it? You know what did you think about the name? I don't know about the name.
Anna Biley: I've thought about it. Let me say I've thought about it. It gave me food for thought.[00:14:00]
Yeah. But for me, I think that caring out, out loud it comes in different formats and it doesn't necessarily have to show up as being shouty and loud. It, it can be It can be about, it's about, it is about courage, actually, and, and sometimes to, to be gentle and kind in a moment where there is no gentleness and kindness, that is tearing out loud to me.
That is sort of standing in your own beliefs and values. So, so yeah, so that, that's kind of what. What came up for me, and when you talked earlier about caring [00:15:00] signs and just sort of getting familiar with those words and that language of caring signs and I think the word you used was kind of it's, it can be a bit clunky at first.
And, and I think, I think what it does do is. Give a voice to A, your values and, and B, what you actually know deep inside to be true. And so you've got this language of, of caring science and the Cary test processes that enable us to just sort of almost have a confidence to, to stand up and care out loud and be heard.
Yeah. And because, because we can articulate it better.
Mary Coughlin: The courage piece. That's really powerful to say, because I think the caring science, it's [00:16:00] almost like it's the, I think it's the language of your soul. It's the language of your inner wisdom. And to have the courage to be able to express that in an environment that that's not the everyday lexicon that's not, you know kind of commonplace.
I think, yeah, I think that that's what the caring science or the care does coaching program helped me cultivate is that language, but I have to tell you, Anna, I mean you care so out loud, it was just so. Amazing. And I think of moments on my journey as you were my faculty mentor through the program where I felt your caring out loud even in the quiet ways that you do it you're absolutely right.
It's not bells and whistles necessary. It can be but it's in those really quiet moments. It's in a lot of the silence. That you offered myself and, and the other members of our little, our little group to [00:17:00] really feel the weight of what we were feeling, feeling the love of a supportive presence without words.
And and it inspired me and gave me the courage to work on, because I'm not there yet, but to work on. Embracing the silence, not feeling like I had to fill it up to let what's going to unfold, unfold as it will and for, for people to feel seen. So for me, Anna, you're just a, a beautiful exemplar of what it is to care out loud, and I'm so grateful that you shared your time and your story with me and everybody who's listening.
So I asked this little question at the very end, just so people can kind of get a, a peek behind the curtain. All right. Who is Anna besides being a caritas faculty and postdoc and all this other cool stuff. So hold onto the desk [00:18:00] while I ask this question. What is on your bedside? Nightstand?
It's on my bedside.
Anna Biley: At the moment there's a photo. Okay. It's a photograph of my husband Fran with our boys, and there is a little, four little cards, which are kind of memoriam cards of one of my mum, one of my dad, and then the other two are of my My best friend's mom and dad who were kind of like my second best.
So that's there. Yes, my photos. I'm trying. I've got a book there at the moment, which is a John O'Donoghue.
So that's there at the moment. I can't think of anything else. [00:19:00] Oh, there's a little card that it says something like may nothing disturb you, may nothing trouble you. So it's one of those kind of Celtic kind of
Mary Coughlin: blessings. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. It
Anna Biley: sounds very untidy, doesn't it?
Mary Coughlin: Actually, I've heard of more untidy bedside tables than that.
So it does not sound untidy at all. It sounds very much aligned with, with who you are and how you, how you, you know, move through your life and everything. So, any last thoughts, words, you know, anything that you'd like to share with the world about the work that you do or your anything.
Anna Biley: I, well, I have got, as you said, to possibly get some bits from my book.
Yes, please. So what so it was very prominent for [00:20:00] me in the process of his, his dying and being alongside as he was dying. And in the months and years that followed was this thing that it was like. Experience and people go, I, I know this, I've done this before. And it was almost like I remembering it wasn't a discovering, I called it remembering purpose.
It wasn't like going a discovering, it was like, I remember this, I, I know how to show up here. And not in, not in the light, a confident way. It was just this deep kind of knowing that, that I, that I was safe. Yeah. And, and I was held. And so I've got this little, this is, just a few lines here, and I'll just share it.
So it says, And so it was that I found myself walking alongside Fran as he lived his dying. As our [00:21:00] lives were turned into chaos, I began to let go of expectations and logical plans, and attempted to live in the moment as was his wish. Gently awakening to a new reality, I had the bizarre yet profound realization that I had done it before and if I trusted my body and my intuition, all would be well.
Amidst it all, a profound sense of remembering purpose resonated. Everything I had ever done, felt or experienced was in order to live the days from Fran's diagnosis to his last breath.
So
Mary Coughlin: beautiful. I have to ask you. And so the remembering, have you explored that? Was the remembering your soul? What was the
Anna Biley: remembering? Remembering was [00:22:00] I was remembering a lot of it, this, this idea of trusting my body and my intuition. I was remembering childbirth. And all the kind of sort of intuitive things that, that you do as you, you prepare to give, and your kind of body knows what to do.
And it was that kind of like, this kind of intuition, this instinctive thing just kicks in. And if you put, you just go with that flow. And it's a connection of, it's that life and death, that sacred circle of life and death. And, and so that, that was what it was. And that kind of remembering that in those most profound and sacred moments of life and death, we are reconnected in our humanity.
And we hold each other in compassion in those times. [00:23:00] And that was the remembering and the remembering of my purpose that that's what I was there to do. Absolutely
Mary Coughlin: beautiful. Anna, thank you so very much. I can't even begin to tell you how grateful I am for you for sharing. That is so profound. I'm going to urge absolutely everyone, you must go to the Watson Caring Science Institute website.
The Lotus Library is where Anna's book is published and available for purchase. It's entitled Birds Hold Our Secrets, A Caritas Story of Grief and Remembering. You will not regret the read. It's absolutely profound and just eloquently written. Thank you again, Anna. And I really appreciate this.
You're just the best.
Anna Biley: And it's lovely to see you and to talk to you.
