Mary Coughlin: All right. welcome. I'm excited to introduce Kimberly Novod, the founder and director of Sol's Light. And to just kick things off, Kimberly, I was hoping that you could just kind of give us a little bit of the backstory of how did you come to establish Saul's Light?
Kimberly Novod: So Saul's Light is my passion project. It is an organization that began in 2014. After my son's death, Saul was born prematurely and like. most premature babies, he experienced a number of complications due to low birth weight.
one of those was an intraventricular hemorrhage, IVH. And he experienced a stage four IVH. unfortunately his brain was not able to recover.
And, you know, we had a vision for our future and for our family and what that would look like. It became very clear when we saw, the [00:01:00] x rays that it wasn't going to be I think I was so gutted, that experience was such a bad experience, just the loss, but like going through the rollercoaster of the NICU, I knew that I would never be the same.
And I knew. That I could not go back to my life as I knew it. I was a high school teacher. I was just like, nope, I can't do that. I can't go back to the classroom. And I wasn't sure yet how it would move me. But the more I started to process and get past.
The grief. I could look back on my journey and think about the things that were missing for me and for other people that were going through the same things. I started looking into my community and figuring out like, you know, what are the resources for NICU families? What do you do when you lose a child?
What do you do when you have a baby in the NICU, [00:02:00] but you don't have gas money, for example? our city didn't have anything like that. our state didn't have resources allocated to NICU families and bereaved families. And I thought how is this possible in a state that has a near 14 percent preterm birth rate?
prematurity is one of the biggest drivers of infant mortality, So with this many people. experiencing the NICU and infant loss. it was unbelievable. It was incomprehensible that we have a population experiencing this level of trauma.
And so our organization started as an answer to that I had a master's degree in nonprofit management that I never used.
Mary Coughlin: Yes.
Kimberly Novod: And, I don't believe in coincidences, right? Everything is in divine timing.
so, I looked around. There was nothing. I thought, well, I can not do something right. I know too much. [00:03:00] I found that Saul's light in my son's name. And to, give light to people, right. to know that light is contagious. Light is the thing that takes people out of darkness and light is the thing that gives people hope and is a thing that like, you know, it.
It creates life. It gives life, right? It doesn't matter if it's sunlight or moonlight light is the giver of all things. And so I thought, let's do that. Let's give light. that was in 2015. a year later, we had plans and the organization as it exists now is not anything like it was.
when it was founded. So we've undergone, and you know, quite the evolution. You know, we went from just like fundraising money for hospitals. NICU families and then realizing there's an equity piece here there's something that we as a grassroots community organization can do better and can create safe spaces for families that are experiencing [00:04:00] trauma, particularly those in systems or entities.
That we're not really built for them. And so we, really started focusing our resources and our advocacy on not just all families, but creating safe spaces for families who comprise marginalized communities. So for us, that means black families, immigrant families. LGBTQ plus families, families who experience substance use disorder.
And then, we can't forget families who live at or below the poverty line, because also in Louisiana we have quite a few families. that live in poverty and there's this saying, I feel like everybody's been saying it for a long time, We're all just two or three paychecks away from bankruptcy That's exactly what a NICU journey does to people. It stretches your finances, you're out of work, we have health complications, your baby has health complications, and then [00:05:00] the same if you lose your baby, Funerals aren't free, even for babies. so, our work evolved to, take care of special populations, but also all the things that could go wrong on a journey.
that's where we are now.
Mary Coughlin: let me ask you a quick question When you were in the initial NICU hospitalization. Did you know you were in a traumatic situation? Or was that a hindsight thing that evolved, in your healing journey, and then kind of your discovery of this, this gap?
In resources and support, how did because you use the word trauma a couple of times, then, as you were describing the evolution of your work and your passion. But I wonder, like, at what point did that kind of become clear and obvious that that's what was happening.
Kimberly Novod: Yeah, that was definitely after the fact when I was in it, I think I was too much surviving it to do [00:06:00] any thinking it was through the use of therapy mindful practice, yoga practice, juggling, That I was able to realize this. and I can't remember it, which is the thing that trauma does, You're like, I can't even remember, this thing.
Right. And so I, through therapy had to start delving into that and try to understand what I was experiencing and how it affects my life, you know, then after, but even now, you know, so like, I'll, I'll give you an example. We, when my son was in the NICU, we were always afraid of getting the call, because he was so critical.
We were so afraid of getting the call that he had died through the night or something catastrophic had happened. still to this day, I do not have a ringer on my phone. Like I can't hear my phone ring. And so it'll be now 10 years since my son died. And every single time I hear a phone ring, [00:07:00] I think this is the end.
something's wrong, you know, something has happened. And so I just, yeah, I can't do that. And so everybody who knows me knows like if they're going to call me, they got to send me a text first.
Mary Coughlin: Well, I mean, and I think so many folks don't really understand that dimension of the trauma experience, that it's not happening, at your brainy part of your brain, it's happening.
It's experiential, it's emotional, and you use the word survival. It's all those aspects of, of who you are that are activated. And you, it's so common for folks not to remember the experience. And I think that really is a call to action for clinicians and health and human service professionals to understand what that lived experience is all about so that you can really serve these individuals
So overwhelmed by their crisis. if you think you're going to hurt someone's feelings by reminding them of some traumatic event, you have to [00:08:00] help them journey through that, It's the retelling of the experience that allows them. Yeah. all the individuals involved, but definitely, you know, the, the family to be able to disentangle themselves and, and kind of, cause I think of that trauma as really, it's like tendrils that just hold you down.
the evolution of the work that I've been doing started out. And I feel like there's a little bit of synchrony in our work, focusing on the NICU, right, just, and, and I was focusing primarily on the medical elements, right, the care procedures and stuff like that, that could be so traumatizing to the individual.
then as you start really kind of looking at the trauma experience. Yes, that acute event is super traumatic. But what's the backstory? what's the rest of that person's life that has been subjected to struggle, challenges, trauma? I mean, systemic, I mean, here [00:09:00] I am sitting here as a white woman.
And I, there's a lot of lived experiences that I am completely unfamiliar with. That does not mean that it's not my responsibility to honor and acknowledge another's lived experience, systemic trauma with poverty, with all of those aspects that shape how an individual comes into these acute medical traumatic Situations, it's just, so complex.
Kimberly Novod: Yeah. We all know that the NICU is difficult. It's a difficult place, right? It's, it's hard for everybody and it is made infinitely harder for people that have this background of other traumas that they've experienced. And, you know, that may be due to where they're from in the world that may be due to race that may be due to their [00:10:00] income, right, or, or they've experienced substance use.
So they're dealing with stigmatization or bias, and so I think that If, if we really want to be able to support families fully right and to be able to have our care and our comfort rooted in equity, then it can't be, you know, we do the same for each patient. That's not how this works, right?
Patients families need different things, and we have to do what's best for them.
Mary Coughlin: Yes. It really highlights, the work of Hailese Als, the founder of the NIDCAP assessment and this idea of individualized, developmentally supportive care.
But I think, you know, many folks think, really I don't know if struggle is the right word, but like just really feel challenged maybe about truly understanding what does that mean? What does individualized care really mean? [00:11:00] It's not just on the surface. it's time to Reposition you and watch for your stress cues It is that but it's so much more and I think we can be incredibly myopic in health care.
We are incredibly Hierarchical in health care and I think now There's an awakening, there's this wave of awareness and an invitation and an expectation to really embrace the opportunities that we have to serve at a, at a truly authentic, equitable, collaborative level in the NICU. And, and of course, in all other settings.
Right. Right. And it sounds like, you know, the, the work that you've been doing really kind of highlights that evolution as well. You know, that in the, at the beginning, it, it sounds like and you'll, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, [00:12:00] but that the initial founding of Saul's light was, seeing a need, and filling that need and and supporting, your healing in that process,
Did you experience this at the beginning, it's kind of like this is what the need was. I needed support. I needed resources. I needed somebody to help, you know, tell me I'm not crazy or whatever. And then as it evolves, you start realizing and you gaining more awareness of, yeah, it's this.
And, you know, kind of as you've elaborated as well. It's so much more. Has your work expanded your understanding of what the needs are of this unique population, maybe at large, but I love how you're very much focused on it. the needs of the population in your town, in your state of Louisiana understanding the challenges these families face, not just with their medical situation, but that there's more to it.
Kimberly Novod: Absolutely. So [00:13:00] when I started and it was, you know, like, I think that people probably called it, that's her nonprofit. That's Kim's. You know, organization, right? Because it was very much about wanting to help people to do a kind thing to sort of like pay it forward.
Yeah, it also was an act of healing for me, right? I think that when you give to people when you're kind and when you support people, it heals you as well. And. It gave me that sort of feeling that I could. You know, take my son's life and his memory and like make some good out of it.
And it wouldn't be in vain. Right. So it was very personal in the beginning, but also I didn't have the knowledge that I do now. you know, my thing is like foreign languages and history and social studies, geography. That's my thing, right? But then, after my son died, I thought I had this [00:14:00] experience where I thought it was just me.
Like I was the only person I was like the most unlucky person in the world. Right. And I just started reading and I found out that this experience that happened to me was happening every day. And not only was it happening every day, it was happening multiple times a day.
And it was happening to women who looked like me. I was enraged. how is this? happening. How does this continue to happen? How is the preterm birth rate not changed in 20 years? how is infant mortality worse now in the so called future, right?
We're living in the future of where we thought we would be 30 years ago. And infant mortality is on the rise, you know, in Louisiana. Like, I just thought like, this is really messed up. And I can't unknow it, right? so we went from, you [00:15:00] know, just like, like I said, like raising money for hospitals and like doing care packages, to being like, this has to stop.
This cannot continue. my son was not the first. And unfortunately, he won't be the last I've got to do something about it so I started sharing my story everywhere. And I started advocating and I started like speaking up and going to meetings and join these coalitions and you know all these things about like.
Health care and women's health care. And I felt like nobody was talking about the fact that there's this huge swath of black women in our community that are having babies too soon. And those babies are dying as a result of it, right? And we're not supporting them, and we're not helping them in the new normal to figure out what that is, right?
So my big thing is this, when your life has been, [00:16:00] devastated, it's really hard to return to, Whatever you had going on, it could be your marriage, it could be your family, it could be raising your other kids, it could be your job, your volunteer position, right? The community. It's really hard to do that without having access to counseling, without having access to support groups.
Without having access to understand the important work of grief, the the, to understand the important work of bereavement and what that is, right. You, you have to do that processing. If you want to like be a whole person, and if you want to be able to be a person who contributes in your life. And so our work evolved to start to look at how does the NICU journey impact us prematurity, infant loss, right.
All those things. Maternal mental health, infant mental health, right? How do those things impact our [00:17:00] babies, our moms? Immediately at the two year mark, five year mark, 10 year mark, we're looking forward and thinking about how do we change this long term, we got into legislation and changing things at the state level to make sure that this large population of people in our community are having this experience.
It seems like an abnormal experience, but the frequency at which it's happening, it's a normal experience, How do we best support these people? How do we prevent where we can? And then, when the ultimate thing happens, how do we see them through it? How do we walk them through it,
So yes, our work absolutely evolved with my level of consciousness and my involvement in my community and being able to see that the best people to provide solutions. For problems [00:18:00] that communities are facing are the people from that community. Right. So like, Oh, everybody who's involved with our mission are people who are either personally or professionally tied to this experience.
All of us are collaborating and we all want the best for babies and families in our community. I think, you know, our, our babies are quite literally our future. And and, you know, frankly speaking, you don't have babies without mamas.
Right. Babies without parents. You know, I always say it's like, leave no parent behind. That is us. We will not leave a parent behind. We know that if we want to change the birth outcomes in our community, and if we want to change the way families experience the healthcare system, that it takes all hands on deck.
it takes people that are knowledgeable with [00:19:00] the journey because they have lived experiences and people who can ally with the journey because they also recognize this as a human rights issue.
Mary Coughlin: So given this huge objective and purpose that you have. What would, what are your like top three priorities right now, given the evolution of your journey?
Kimberly Novod: Yeah. So our, our biggest priority Of everything that we do is maternal mental health and recognizing how it's impacted, By these journeys and experiences. The next is. health equity. That's a huge thing for us. So we, we don't just work with families.
We also work with healthcare professionals to think through what equity looks like in their unit And the third thing is policy. Being able to change birth outcomes in the long term for [00:20:00] our community.
Louisiana is always like, you know first in everything bad or second rather, right? Because I feel like Mississippi is always first and everything bad. Louisiana is second and everything bad. And you know, last and everything good. It's not okay. Like who do we think is going to be here 20 years from now or 30 years from now?
It's these kids. It's all these kids that are going into the NICU. we support families in the thick of it, so we're providing direct services, but we're also thinking long term and, with policies, we're thinking about things that really matter and that are really specific to our community.
Like emergency preparedness because we're prone to hurricanes, increase breastfeeding rates because we understand that when you're prone to hurricanes and you need to evacuate. formula might not be the safest thing to evacuate with, you know? So there are, you know, lots of things that we're doing on that front that will try to [00:21:00] change the you know, the ecosystem of health outcomes But we're also meeting people where they are and walking them through that. And so we, you know, we do it with. A lot of different ways. We do it with group support. We do it with peer mentors. We do it with individual support. We do it with financial cash assistance.
Which some people say is a radical thing. And I don't think so because, I grew up poor and I know that what poor people need more than anything is money. that's what helps policy. we connect people to resources in the community. we're doing individualized care.
We don't call it case management, right? we are helping our community with the things that they need. And it's, and people can call it what they want. They can call it charity. I call it love. We're saying that you're a person and you're worthy, and we're not going to leave you alone in this.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah, I love that you said that it's love because I feel very passionate about this idea of trauma informed care, [00:22:00] But you know, the language is starting to bother me a little bit because I feel like, what is it, what am I really talking about? I'm really talking about love. I'm really talking about embracing and supporting and loving our fellow. Human beings, you know, these individuals that deserve respect, they deserve dignity, they deserve compassion.
and to really address the rampant dehumanization that we have in society at large. And in healthcare as well. All of those substructures from the larger systems that tend to dehumanize. Yes, across the board, right.
Kimberly Novod: Yes. You know, absolutely. I think that's, that's how we got here.
It's an accident that we're seeing the health outcomes that we're seeing. I've heard someone put it that, these systems are working exactly the way they were intended to work. So we have to do a lot of work of dismantling [00:23:00] systems. And we do that, like you said, right, because People are worthy.
They deserve, they, they are you know, worthy of love. They're worthy of other people advocating for them. They're worthy of, having enough diapers, they're worthy of having access to mental health counselors. these things. cannot be only for the people who can afford them.
Exactly. That's not okay. That, that is not equity based and that is not trauma informed. we need to make supports. For everybody because everybody deserves it. Yeah.
Mary Coughlin: it's exciting to hear this voice being spoken out so loudly. you see folks addressing the issue of equity, the issue of disparity, the issue of dehumanization in more of the research in the literature, you know, folks are really speaking out about it and that so much.
Had been [00:24:00] taboo for so long, nobody wants to hear that stuff, you know, button it up. Don't get political, you know, all the crazy things that people say. And it's like, wait a minute, this isn't political. This is human. You can spin it however you want, but we're talking about fellow human beings who are suffering.
And the worst of it is this idea of dehumanization. It begins at birth when we marginalize and minimize the humanity of these incredibly noble, fragile human beings. And I'm pretty sure everybody started out as a baby. So, we need to really address that in meaningful, measurable ways.
And hopefully begin to dismantle this ubiquitous tragedy that is that has been a legacy of modern society for far too long. But you certainly are an incredible exemplar, of what it means to care out [00:25:00] loud.
that's the name of the podcast and everything, but I would be really intrigued to get, you know get your perspective on what does it mean to you to care out loud? What it may be, what does it look like in your work?
Kimberly Novod: I think that in order to care out loud. You have to lead with vulnerability, which to some people might seem like the total opposite of what you want to do, people have to be able to relate to you and what you're saying, and they do that through vulnerability right because we all have experienced. Something that didn't feel good, So we can all find that. And I think that to be vulnerable is to care out loud, right? To be able to be empathetic,
To be able to find that feeling. And be able [00:26:00] to say, Yeah, I remember that. So I know how hard that is, or I remember what that feeling was like, right. And so to be able to meet the next person in their vulnerability, because you get it. to care out loud is to value every person as divine, right?
And I don't mean in a religious perspective. I mean, just in a scientific perspective, I think it's amazing that any of us are even here. If you understand biology what are the chances that we would all be here and born in this time and in this place, right? And so I think that, if you can see that in somebody else and say like, wow, like you beat the odds to be here just like I did.
So we're special, and we have to do something with this. That's caring out loud is being willing to be vulnerable, [00:27:00] meet other people in their vulnerability through empathy and compassion, and then to dedicate yourself to being the best person that you can be. And that I think you can judge that through your interactions with others, right?
Yeah. How are you treating, and it doesn't have to be a big thing, right? So like, you don't have to start an organization and like help thousands of people. It's just like, if you see that your neighbor's trash is out and you're pulling in your trash, are you going to pull in their trash too? When you see a little kid, crying do you say, oh, that kid's annoying, get them out of here or do you say, wow, that must be hard for that parent? To, go through that. So I think that is like finding ourselves in each other and say, I see you, you matter.
You're worthy. Let me help you.
Mary Coughlin: I can feel my eyes starting to get a little [00:28:00] bit moist.
When we can see ourselves in others and recognize our shared humanity, That protects us all from reducing each other to an object, marginalizing or minimizing another person. But I think so many of us struggle with we bought in the story, we drank the Kool Aid and we think that we have to do life this certain way.
and kind of be on that hamster wheel instead of just saying, stop, getting off being vulnerable being compassionate, being empathic. It takes courage to do that, but it is so rewarding and so fulfilling. It is scary, right? It can feel super scary,
Kimberly Novod: Because you're, when you allow yourself to feel, is that you can get hurt. But I think that's the beauty in it. You know, we have a culture that sort of leans [00:29:00] into the binary or duality. Everything is like either or black or this or that, we cannot have day without night.
We cannot have good without bad. It's the way that life works. But whenever we feel for another person, another community, another, you know, being It's never the wrong thing. That's never the wrong thing to do. You're never gonna lose, because you're growing from each interaction that you have with people and you're learning understanding yourself better, and then you're really connecting to yourself.
To everybody else. Right. And so like James Baldwin has a quote and he says like, you know, these children are all our children. we should never look at any kids anywhere and be like, [00:30:00] that's their kids.
Yeah. That's a them problem. That's those people over there, like all of these kids are ours. I talk about when I go places or I'm talking to legislators people are so leaned into their binary, right? You're a Democrat. Well, guess what?
All these kids belong to Louisiana. what do we want for our Children? What do we want for them? they belong to all of us. We have to do our best for them.
Mary Coughlin: that is just so profound and inspiring of a beautiful way of wrapping up our discussion today. Because that's where the wisdom lies is in our vulnerability, but also our shared awareness that we are in this together.
You can try and run away from it and think you're going to, escape but life is messy. Life is interconnected. It's intraconnected, we are ourselves and we are part of the whole there. This really cool book by Dan [00:31:00] Siegel. He's written a lot of stuff around Mindsight, mindfulness neurobiology You know, babies and the developing brain And this recent book is called intra connected. And he talks about the me and the we, and we need to really wake up and realize that there isn't.
A binary, light and dark black and white, but there's, it's a spectrum too. Right. Yes. And and I can be me, but I'm at the same time we, I am at the same time. And, and I think that is really Has to be in another part of this evolving awakening that is so necessary for humankind to stop, segregating everybody, putting everybody in their boxes and creating this perpetuation of these, this silo orientation to life, because it's only damaging us.
It's only causing more pain, more suffering globally, The divisions that we're trying to create [00:32:00] if we can break that down and reconnect and as you so eloquently said, realize that these are all our children. These represent our future.
How can we support these people and give them what they need to live their best self. and perpetuate a more loving orientation to the world than what we're dealing with
Kimberly Novod: I love that interconnectedness, the B versus we are.
Look, Mary, it's the story of my life, I started out being like, this is terrible. This happened to me. And then in the end, I realized, no, this is we, this is bigger than me. This is bigger than Saul. This is bigger than Kimberly. I recognize not only my interconnectedness with all women in my community, but women, you know, all across the world.
I will take that book suggestion.
Mary Coughlin: Awesome. You are just. An incredible woman, an [00:33:00] incredible human. I am so grateful that you've shared your time with me and, and sharing your story and your journey and your passion. I'm going to wrap us up with a quick question
I didn't put it on my cheat sheet for you, to prepare for it. Okay. it's kind of rapid fire questions. I'm going to be asking you a few of your things. Okay. All right.
Kimberly Novod: You ready? Ready. Favorite book? The Color Purple.
Mary Coughlin:
Favorite movie? The Color Purple. What's your favorite song?
Kimberly Novod: My favorite song is The Beautiful Ones by Prince.
Mary Coughlin: Oh, I love that. And how about favorite
Kimberly Novod: color? My favorite color is purple. Excellent. Oh my gosh. We have a
Mary Coughlin: theme here. Okay. And then what's your favorite activity?
Kimberly Novod: My favorite thing to do is to read books with my daughter.
Mary Coughlin: Nice. Very nice. I hope everyone now has a deeper understanding of the genius and passion [00:34:00] behind Saul's Light, behind Kimberly Novot And just want to thank you again for sharing your wisdom and journey with us on
Kimberly Novod: this podcast.
Thank you.
Mary Coughlin: God bless you.
