Jessi Barnes
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Mary Coughlin: [00:00:00] So thank you so much, Jessie. I'm excited and honored to have you join us here on our podcast, Care Out Loud.
I was really excited to read about your recent, editorial perspectives, in the, advances journal, it really spoke to, the mission of caring essentials and becoming trauma informed. I wanted to kick things off and ask you, How has your journey through all of the things that you've experienced as a professional NICU nurse, as the mother of a baby who required NICU hospitalization, and then the aftermath of that.
How has your journey impacted your understanding of the importance of trauma informed perspective in health? And human services specifically, does being trauma informed matter?
Yes.
Jessi Barnes: So, first of all, I am honored to be here. thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to share my story. and the short answer to all the questions you asked is yes, It absolutely [00:01:00] matters. I have adopted this mindset throughout all aspects of my life that being trauma informed is required everywhere.
And I think if we, as individuals, could all tap into some version of perspective taking through a trauma informed lens, the world would be a kinder place. It's so hard out there, you know, to be a person, let alone to be the parent of a child requiring NICU care to be a health care professional, to be a professional who deals with people, which is most of us,
So most of us are interacting with people in some capacity. and I tend to really try to think, where's this coming from? all the reactions, positive, negative, neutral, like, what is the story behind this? understanding that people have a story before this interaction.
And all of those stories color how we interact in a community.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah, so beautifully said. many times we are accultured into [00:02:00] thinking that we're these one dimensional individuals, right? I'm going to work now. I need to be this way. And then I'm going home and I need to be this way. Instead of melding the richness and the skills and talent and wisdom of all of your roles to show up to that present moment.
you described that so beautifully. I was, I was hoping you might be able to share a little bit of that journey of putting pen to paper and writing that story.
Jessi Barnes: Yeah, it was very challenging. I was a little scared to put our story out there. because it's not a perspective that's often shared about the NICU.
A lot of NICU parenting perspectives tend to come from a core place of gratitude, which I have an immense amount of, I am forever grateful for the care that she received. I have a daughter with minimal, sequelae because of the high quality care. but also I had opportunities to see from the duality of that lens from the [00:03:00] NICU parent and NICU professional.
Where we still have a little bit of potential for some work that we could do. and I've never met a NICU nurse who was like, I don't want to be better. But sometimes that was the tone that I received
Why aren't you just happy that she's here? Well, yeah, I am. I'm also terrified that she's here. Like, I tell my, you know, residents when I'm training my new grads, I tell them all the time, they don't want to be in the NICU. They've, they've in some form accepted that they're here and they're grateful but they don't want to be here.
Nobody gets pregnant and, you know, looks at that positive sign on a stick and says, Oh, I can't wait to go to the NICU. you're playing a very important role in a chapter in someone's life that they never wanted to write. and that takes some, perspective and some power to really step into and figure out how am I going to play this role from the most respectful place?
it was really a reflection of my own practice as a, as a NICU nurse. And kind of thinking, Oh, how many times could I have done something slightly [00:04:00] different, even unintentionally said something that was not as open as I would have preferred or as inclusive as I would have preferred, or as validating to the parents experience.
I remember I had one moment in my career where I told a parent that, it's my job to worry about the monitor. It's your job to be a parent and to love them but it's my job to worry about the monitor. So please just don't worry about that.
And then, I walked away from that interaction I validated his importance as a family member, said that you were welcome here But hearing those words said to me, I still gonna worry like that worry doesn't go away just because you said it doesn't exist and not to have it.
And so just all those little moments of like, wow, how, how many opportunities do we have to be intentional in that language and saying something like, You know, I know you're concerned about what's going on on the monitor I'm here to help support you through that.
your job right now primarily is to provide support for baby and I'm going to provide support for both of you. And think of how we got to the same place, but it was just through such a [00:05:00] different lens, and so more foundation of empathy. Yeah.
Mary Coughlin: How do you think, we evolved to that place?
as you said, there's not a clinician walking around that doesn't love the work that he or she does, doesn't love caring for these babies and families in crisis. But then there's this disconnect, where kind of this paternalistic hierarchical thing just ends up being the filter for our communications and that seems to then be the hiccup that, causes those kinds of, you know, that just ends up really distressing and almost minimizing that other individual's lived
Jessi Barnes: experience. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head when you said hierarchy, right? There's so much hierarchy in medicine in the different roles in the health team members. in the politics of operations versus education versus staff nurse versus medical team.
and then to add the family and the patient into it, there's a whole other [00:06:00] layer of, of hierarchy. And so, like, I think we've settled into what we think our roles are in that ladder. we've decided that I understand, I am doing this, your job is this, my job is this, his job is that, their job is that, and no one is going to try to cross over.
But I feel like that's such a missed opportunity to incorporate humanity into what we do. back when I was in nursing school, I had an instructor who, used to always try to make the point that, yes, we have, individual roles, but you're doing them all at once.
It is a simultaneous, seamless role. You're the educator. the critical thinker, the supporter, the advocator, you're all these things, but you're doing them all together. And I think in some ways we've kind of devolved into being task oriented and the educator in me is like, okay, what does that mean?
That's next. If we're all going back to task orientation, are we preparing ourselves for the next step of integration or have we just settled back into task orientation? Because that's what's [00:07:00] familiar are we scared to challenge ourselves to get back to integration in this setting now it's so much more technology.
It's healthcare is so different, even just in my, you know, 14 years that I've been doing it. Trying to stay on top of that and adjust is hard for the individual. Yeah.
Mary Coughlin: Well, and I think you kind of touched upon this when we started our conversation that there are a lot of external, factors that are invisible, that are kind of ubiquitous to Our lives that we don't appreciate how that burden, plays out across all aspects of our lives, right?
So, we're super task oriented. Why? because our organizations, measure the tasks, right? So somehow we've got it in our head that the tasks are an expression of my value. because we don't really monitor and measure the, qualitative dimensions of the work we do, and that we are much more than our tasks.
I mean, you don't have to have [00:08:00] a bachelor's of nursing. You don't have to be a registered nurse. if you're really gonna just deduce everything down to tasks. I think one of the things that you really called out in your paper was an invitation. That's what it felt like to me
It felt like an invitation to re examine where are we now from a neonatal nursing perspective? But as a neonatal nurse to really, let go of my ego, let go of trying to control an incredibly uncontrollable situation, and lean into the discomfort of bearing witness to the suffering of others.
Being present and, acknowledging that I don't know what she's feeling or he's feeling. I don't know what's going on, but I'm here in this moment and I want to make a difference. I want to help these folks move through this. the way you, crafted your story highlighted different aspects of the lived experience, even the section where you talked about privilege and acknowledging if this [00:09:00] is hard for me as a white professional woman, how hard is this for other folks who don't have that same privilege?
Jessi Barnes: And that was very intentional acknowledging the privilege that I carried into this state The layers of privilege were deep for me. as a white woman, as someone who had transportation, insurance, income, support at home to watch my other children, who knew the environment, I wasn't scared about the environment at all, really.
I knew I had professional and personal relationships with the staff, with the provider team. I had so much privilege coming into this and I was still struggling. And it was just this eye opener of, oh my gosh, like, how do other people do this, because I am barely making it through these 75 days, and look at all I have behind me to support that.
Yeah. and so it was very just eye opening of like, wow, we've got to grow some capacity in ourselves so [00:10:00] that we can then sit in that discomfort. And like you said, acknowledge when you don't actually know what they're thinking, but welcome them, should they be, willing to share or feel safe to share where they're at.
Think of how many, discussions might be had in a place of vulnerability that then are used against someone, especially when you're thinking, along the lines of some of the, structural racism and institutional racism that exists. Some families are scared of saying something in fear of retribution.
And so I didn't have to worry about those things. I had other things to worry about, but not that.
Mary Coughlin: I love how you use the phrase build capacity. but how do we do that? Like, how do we build capacity? in a very staunch, environment that is somewhat resistant to change, and hierarchical,
How do we build capacity, and help invite people to make the time for those kinds of reflections that, expand insight and
Jessi Barnes: [00:11:00] wisdom? It kind of goes back to valuing the individual, not only individual that you're, is your patient, right? But also the individual that is, is your peer or is your staff, your coworkers, right?
Like, I think we've kind of drifted away from validation to ourselves. I don't mean to feed into the egotism of it, but like the actual experience as a human being in this setting. I think about how, research has shown us about the very clear benefit of a debrief after good things, bad things, after things that didn't go quite as well, but maybe we still had a decent outcome, but there was something that could have gone differently.
And just that validation and the holding space of what the team just did. That code was successful. Congratulations. You gave a family an option that might not have been available. But let's talk about what it took to do that and the humanity that had to show up for that person in crisis and act in a way that some people will never truly understand takes it out on you.
I think there's been a push [00:12:00] for, self care into health care and everything, which I'm all for. But sometimes when you use terms like that so broadly, they start to lose their meaning. And so it's really defining what does that mean for you, and how can we, build the capacity around that?
How can the system be built to support you in that? sometimes I think that's some of the most powerful discussions you can have, from a professional development or education standpoint, of just that interpersonal, critical thinking, empathetic discussion You actually played a much more important role here than you even want to give yourself credit for let's tap into what that feels like on the individual level and then see how that's going to help show up differently the next time you're faced with a similar situation.
Mary Coughlin: I mean, it sounds like you're really saying, you know, walking the talk. self care and even trauma informed care, they're starting to become these sound bites, that you have to throw that in the mix of your conversation. So you sound relevant and you're, on the cutting edge.
but if it's [00:13:00] just a phrase that you're tossing around and there's no meat or meaning to it, then it rings hollow and people feel that self care is not just something that I go home and, close myself off in a room and, give myself a pep talk or, light some lavender incense and then all of a sudden I'm magically whole again.
It's, you use the term self care. creating, a sacred space with your colleagues. and really debrief about not just the tasks, but the feelings, how that all unfolded. But we get acculturated into our profession.
we don't really want to talk about your feelings. because this is hard facts. This is science. This is X, Y and Z. But my feelings are real and they contribute to my sense of self and competence and confidence and support my self esteem.
capabilities in maintaining a capacity. so if you have me split them off from me, then I'm just a [00:14:00] shell of who I really am. And then we tend to, right? I mean, this is now my own lived experience that, when your feelings aren't supported, validated, acknowledged, and not in this you know, ridiculousness, way that I think people are afraid of, but just in a, oh my gosh, that was wicked scary.
I didn't think I was going to be able to do this. And I just, I just need to verbalize that I was really afraid in those moments because if I don't verbalize them and I don't get a sense of reassurance, then that fear is going to stick with me and I don't get to diffuse it right and release it. and I also recognize it.
Oh my gosh, you were also scared. You were also nervous. I thought you did a great job and we reinforce each other. Then we see each other as, Bigger than the sum of our parts and by practicing that with each other that helps us hone our skills and build our capacity To oh my gosh, look There's another human being over here who [00:15:00] may be having feelings too that I may be able to relate to or connect to but again, right so when we when we divorce ourselves peer to peer That sets us up, I think, to be even, you know, additionally dehumanizing or minimizing to those that we serve.
Jessi Barnes: Yeah, people don't exist in a vacuum. We are not just one thing ever. whether you're at home, at work, out in the community, we are so multi dimensional and there's an intersectionality to how we exist. I think We've gotten so far away from that that it's hard to get us to turn back because people are scared.
if I acknowledge that you're feeling something that means I have to acknowledge that I'm feeling something and I have to sit in this discomfort, figure out how I want to show up in this world. Because all of those little interactions, they're all trauma responses, Like I'm feeling activated.
So now I am going to respond I'm going to lash out. I'm going to run [00:16:00] away. I'm going to shut down. I'm going to make you feel good. Something is going to happen in me that is going to change the way I show up. And just listening to you I was feeling a little activation and remembering my NICU stays because some of the safest moments I had.
Were when I was with somebody who had enough understanding and empathy to see that I couldn't cope anymore and I just needed someone to hear me and provide a safe space. Aurelia, was, uh, 27 week home abruption, no steroids.
So she had a rough course coming off her CPAP and she had had a flare up and had one septic workup. I wasn't convinced that she had an infection, but we don't trust babies, We have to prove it. I was really convinced that she needed her pressure, her flow back.
She was just being dramatic about coming off of support. And, I had to step into some, firm discussions with the provider team about what she needs, this is what I'd like to see happen, let's talk about this on a professional realm because this is what I'm seeing as a professional, not [00:17:00] even as her mom.
Yeah. And it took a lot out in me to do that. And the nurse that day, she pulled the curtain at the bedside and she just said, I just want to give you a minute. I was so grateful for that because I needed that minute to regulate myself. I needed that minute to come back down from that fight, a little bit of fight to come back down to a place where I wanted to be because I had to step into something that I'd hoped I didn't have to.
That version of advocacy that required a little bit of push. , and I was grateful that she could see that and she could recognize that and she could facilitate that space for me. , it was just one of the scariest coupled with comforting moments that I had while we were in the NICU.
Mary Coughlin: And and the thing I love what you just said, I think we also as professionals, struggle with the realization that you can have two opposing emotions simultaneously.
You can be [00:18:00] grateful and you can be terrified. You can be courageous and. Also terrified. I think I didn't know just kind of going right back, , to your example there. And and the other piece that you just made me think about is How uncomfortable and it does kind of go back to what I was just kind of battling about, but how uncomfortable we are with the emotions, right?
we create an environment that really does stifle. the emotional experience of the person that we're serving. we'll ask fleetingly how you doing? But really, we're just saying hi.
Yeah, I don't really want to know how you're doing. And you can feel that I'm not really asking you how you're doing. I'm just, it's just a greeting. And because it's not just the words I say, 70 or 80 percent of my communication is My body language. So if I say, how you doing today?
And I turn my back and I start, you know, adjusting the lines and the tubes and doing all these other things, you know, I don't really care. I mean, or at least I don't in [00:19:00] that not in that moment. and then I can leave and say, Oh, she seems fine. Yeah, everything that you know, she, she told me she was fine, because that's our response, right?
That's the programmed response. I'm fine. And I have heard that from so many other former NICU parents, I knew in that moment that you weren't creating a space for conversation. So I'm just going to tell you what you want to hear and just keep, the facade rolling.
Because there is no place for me to express
Jessi Barnes: myself. Right. And I felt that a lot. And it was especially strange for me because These are people I talked to for years, you know, like they were, they were friends, they were co workers, they were peers, like, and so it was just all of a sudden this, this weird relationship shift, but I also, gave grace, right?
I understood that this is weird for you too, it's weird for me. and I also know that maybe you don't have the capacity for this. The system hasn't built that in for you. And so you're not really ready for the honest answer of how I'm doing. I mean, I started giving it anyway, which I think made [00:20:00] people uncomfortable, but I, I tend to lean into discomfort as a person.
I think My life has shown me that not all of us get to experience. I don't think anybody actually gets to experience a life without hardship. Certain people's hardship is very different than others. And we need to hold space for that, but on the other side of discomfort, should you be lucky enough to get to that other side, there is an immense amount of growth.
And I have just decided that this is going to make people uncomfortable, but this is who I am. And so when they ask in the hallway, how you doing, I'm going to say, you know what, I'm a little tired. I'm not so great. I can't wait to get out of here. We're day 62. But you know, I'm here and I hope you're having a good day.
Because all of those things were valid. They were all accurate, right? I could no longer invalidate my own experience by just being like, great. How are you? Yeah, it just wasn't true, And I think it's not true of most of NICU families, there's just this need to [00:21:00] perform, need to have this like Invalidation is acceptance, which is how I started my NICU stay.
I mean, I remember going up to see her the first time and thinking, okay, but what they said, she's an eight 11 to five. So I have to get there at 11 so I can make sure that they do their things. I'm going to get in with them. Like I was immediately thinking and centering their experience rather than our own experience as a family.
Yeah. And it. It was just wild to think that I did that. But like after the bath incident, which was
Mary Coughlin: going to say the bath. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessi Barnes: That changed everything. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what this is not about y'all. I mean, as much as I love and respect and, and I'm grateful for, this is about my family, this is about my baby.
This is about my husband, myself. Like. No, I can't put y'all first anymore, , and I'm gonna make you meet me here and know if it's gonna be challenging, , [00:22:00] and I have some moments that that didn't go so well, but I haven't also a huge amount that did people who would stop and be like, I, I never saw it that way.
I never thought of it that way. Or it's not usually my practice to do this, but then we did it with you and it was so easy. Yeah. And I was like, well, I encourage you to do it with others then. Like, exactly. Right.
Mary Coughlin: It's that leading by example. It's being that role model, right? That intentional role model and a mentor as well.
You made me think a little bit about the good girl thing, you know, like when you first came, to the NICU, despite your history as a NICU professional, it was, I got to be the good girl. And I think a lot of moms at least, you know, May come to the environment with that mentality.
And again, what is that representative of? That's representative of a larger systemic, hierarchical, ubiquitous phenomenon how we are cultured into our society. And [00:23:00] so I think, you know, recognizing the multi dimensional elements of each of our lived experiences and how it plays out and how we show up in service and being able to have that perspective.
Take the perspective and realize you know what there's lots of things that are messed up in this world But at the end of the day, I am called to serve you this human being who's had this catastrophic experience I need to Acknowledge the enormity of it, even though I may not understand I need to understand it.
I need to understand that this must be devastating and act accordingly if I'm really going to step up and and be the best version of, who I've been called to be in my work in my life, I mean, it's, it really is, it's about caring out loud, and in my opinion, you know, that that's an invitation for all of us.
Enough about my opinions. I would love to hear [00:24:00] from you, what does it mean to you to care out loud? Did you see exemplars of caring out loud during your experience that might help
Jessi Barnes: elucidate that? Yeah. for my own personal, thoughts of what that means is to take, to take pride in your advocacy, to stand out there, to stand out there, stand in the gap.
For that family and say, I care about you. I don't just care that this IV is going out. I don't just care that your baby needs to eat because it's late o'clock. I care about you and your experience and your baby's experience, this person in the bed that I have the privilege to help right now. I care about them and I'm willing to put myself out there in a way.
That is potentially invites discomfort for me to hopefully facilitate some safety for you. And I had that during, during my stay. I had moments of that, like, [00:25:00] I know that the editorial introduced some kind of, other perspectives of the NICU, that invitation to reflect, as you, as you so kindly put it I'm so fond of some of those people who, who, who were able to facilitate safety for myself and for Aurelia and for Jason, my husband.
And I tried so hard to call those out when they happened and she's been like. I thank you so much for that. Like, let me show you how that feels, how that landed for me, in hopes that it could just get incorporated into practice. a lot of the people who cared for Aurelia were people I've worked with for years and years, but some were people I didn't know.
People that I met, they were new to the specialty, they were new graduates even. And I was like, I want this to be something that you walk away with, like that you walk away with something that you really made a difference here. And here, let me put it to paper. Let me put it to words. Let me invite you to this weird, uncomfortable place with [00:26:00] me where I can say thank you in a genuine way.
And some, some could take it, some couldn't, right? But I think there's also going to be just like lasting connections from some of those interactions. And that I think. All NICU parents have a story of that. They have a story of someone who made a difference for them. My hope is through sharing this and through encouraging reflection and encouraging kind of critical appraisal of our practice.
That we can get to most interactions hold that capacity and not just some, because I think as a profession, we have the ability to do this. We can do this. And so we just need to figure out what is needed to make this be a more often than not occur.
Mary Coughlin: Do you have an idea then of what those top priorities would be?
What would those I don't know if there are elements of education or performance or whatever, but do you have a
Jessi Barnes: thought about that? I mean, I think all change starts with an introduction of education, right? An introduction of information and kind of sharing [00:27:00] things that maybe with a different perspective, or a meaning to it.
I also think some of the biggest ways to make impact and make change is through through mentorship and actually demonstration of the skill, right? If someone can just see like, oh, well, that seemed pretty easy the way you just kind of seamlessly did that. And you're like, yeah, it doesn't have to be some like, and now I'm here to provide empathy to you.
Like, it doesn't have to be this formal introduction. You just do it, it is a skill. It does take time, especially, I think, with all the societal pressures and, like, the system pressures to just be task oriented. You do have to kind of say, like, no, I'm going to be different, and I want to do it this way.
So it does take some intentionality, but by no means is it impossible. And I think the best way to show how reasonable it is is through demonstration, through just living by example. Yeah,
Mary Coughlin: and I think people need. I love that you said it was a skill and I think people really have an opportunity to practice it.
But in order to practice it and build that [00:28:00] capacity, we need to really, I think, look within, it begins with ourselves. I love, , Jean Watson and nursing theorist for anybody who might not know Jean Watson where she talks about how I am with myself is how I show up for others and, and right and vice versa.
And so if I am not kind and loving and empathic to myself, it's really hard for me to show up and be authentically empathic and compassionate and kind to you. I might go through the motions, but we all know when something rings hollow. you might be pouring me a glass of water, but to, to me, it just feels like you're checking something off your list.
I'm grateful for the water, don't get me wrong, but there's an opportunity for you to kind of hone that skill. And the best person that you can practice on, gee willikers, it's yourself. You know, you can bring, you can actually [00:29:00] practice self care. In a, in a way that is like a practicum for building those skills and capacity in service to others.
Jessi Barnes: Yeah. And I think that's my favorite part of being an educator is inviting people to do that kind of introspective shared learning, right? Like, now let's think about that. Let's talk about it. Let's break it down. What did it feel like? How did you come up with those words and really kind of show that you have it in you?
and maybe you don't, but your friend here does, and you can lean into the collective genius of the group and together you can, you know, work on this problem. Like, I think sometimes some of what holds us back is this, this, need that I have to do it. It has to be me. Well, maybe not.
Maybe you should partner with this person here and together you can provide this family with what they need, whether that's in a formal structure, meaning like the nurse will partner with the social worker or with the provider. sometimes it's just peer to peer and person to person [00:30:00] of Hey, I'm not quite sure you had this person last week.
it seemed to go well, do you have any feedback? What can I do differently? Or even going to that trusted other right and kind of role playing and discussing and saying, where is the opportunity for me here to grow a little bit because I think through those things you'll you'll end up seeing things about yourself that you didn't know.
Strengths that didn't have or didn't want to immediately give yourself credit for. And then I think that just will then overflow into all aspects of your life, you know, after I completed the, trauma informed professional program. It really was just a reflection of, of who I was as a person, not just as a professional.
Right. And I started just seeing and thinking and reflecting on how that cup just overflows into all aspects because we are not just one dimension. Yeah, yeah,
Mary Coughlin: exactly. Oh, I love how you just shared that. So if you were going to then offer, a nugget of wisdom or some [00:31:00] insight something quintessential that you've gained over your career so far, what would that be?
What would you want to share with the world
Jessi Barnes: today? I think, I'm only 14 years into this right, I still think of myself as a little baby person. I commonly will tell people that you are who I want to be when I grow up, whenever that time comes, because I think. there's so much, so much left for me to learn.
Right. But I also think that through my journey as, as a NICU parent and, and professional, the biggest thing that rings true for me that I want to share is just trying to navigate that balance of being authentic and being empathetic and really just leaning into. This is, this is who I want to be. This is how I want to show up.
And this is how I'm going to represent myself here. And so [00:32:00] sometimes I found in my stay and even in my professional world, sometimes the best thing to say was, I'm not sure, but let's find out.
Let me let who I understand where you're at. Let me see if I can get us some help. So we both can figure out what's going on. Yes, and kind of being vulnerable when it felt safe to do so. And kind of, to me, that provided validation to the family of, okay, so they're not just these all knowing gods who know everything about babies and I know nothing.
Right. It invited them to be a part of this team because we're all a part of a team and we're going to lean into the team to provide safe care for you and your family.
Mary Coughlin: Right. And really speaking to that uniqueness, that individuality, that you know what? Yeah, maybe I have cared for many, many babies and families that had a baby born at 27 weeks gestation, but that doesn't mean that each one of them wasn't a unique valuable special, sacred individual that didn't deserve my undivided attention.
In [00:33:00] that particular moment, instead of just kind of homogenizing everything to just really lean into those moments that respect and acknowledge that there's only one of you ever in the world
Jessi Barnes: ever. Like, this is, this is their story. We play a role in it. We are on the stage. We didn't ask for it. They didn't ask for it, but here we are.
But this is their story. And hold space for all the nuance that that brings. Because more times than not, you're actually going to find that there's ways to partner with that to provide validation and to ensure safety for that family than there is asking someone to be something that they just aren't capable of doing because it's not who they are.
if you allow them to say who they are, support who they are and meet them there, your relationship and the outcome for that family automatically becomes so much richer. And so much more meaningful [00:34:00] for all parties, really. What a perfect
Mary Coughlin: note to end on. Thank you so very much, Jessie. That was so amazingly beautiful and profound.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Did
Jessi Barnes: it feel okay to you? Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. Wow. could talk to you all day,
Mary Coughlin: God bless you. And I as well could also talk to you all day. I'm so grateful.
