Markus Podcast
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Mary Coughlin: [00:00:00] I'm so incredibly excited to have Dr. Marcus Wilken with us today, all the way from Germany, which is pretty special. And let's just dive right in. How did you arrive in your current position?
Markus Wilken: By accident. It was never a plan. So when I was young, it was just like some people have to go to school, me as well. And school was considered to be very boring for me. It was very boring for me. So I had a job and my job was, I was a babysitter for autistic children because I don't want to mow the lawn.
And that was the opportunity. And, and, I figured out it's a pretty fun job to do and I loved it. And in the area I lived there's a lot of autistic children, adults, and a lot of parents who just don't know what to do with them in the afternoon and taking care of autistic adults can be a challenge.
So they're like, could you come in and take them out for the afternoon, [00:01:00] go into the woods. And I loved it. I really loved it. It was so much fun. And the problem was that at some point school was over. And then I had to do social service in Germany at this time, you were to do military or social service.
I did social service with adults with handicapped and we did holidays with them. And I loved it. And then I decided to do psychology, what I've never wanted to do, but well, it's as you have to do something.
And I hated it because it was so boring, you know, you go there and everybody talks about series and it's everything's very hard and it's scientific approved and blah, blah, blah, blah. And when you, when you work with human beings, you sit there in the class and sit there like, okay. Did these guys ever have seen a human being?
Does that exist? So I figured out that this is not the line of work I want to do. And at this point I was working in the developmental psychology of department [00:02:00] and my professor there, Heidi Keller, she was working doing baby research. And she told me well, if you don't want to proceed with that, it's cool.
But there's some guys I met from Austria. They're chaotic they aren't structured, but they will definitely let you work with babies. And then I went to Austria and just see if I like it, I will do it. And if I don't like it, I will go back up to two weeks
and I stayed there for six months. Because I loved it. They were just like the babies and the, the, the, the, the first kids coming in was feeding tubes and a lot of the work and messing with food and the interaction. And I just like, okay, that's it. That's what I will do for the rest of my life.
It's not that long ago, it was in the middle of the nineties. And since then I'm doing that and I didn't find a better joB.
Mary Coughlin: It sounds like a fantastic job. Wow. So I, I didn't realize, to be honest, until I met you last year that there was this [00:03:00] psychological approach to helping babies unbundle maybe the, the trauma that they experience around mealtime activities or feeding experiences.
Can you, can you share a little bit more
Markus Wilken: about that? Well when we started with, with the whole stuff we were not aware that trauma plays an important role. So again, in the nineties, there were no papers, there were no research, nothing. We basically did everything from sketch. There wasn't even something like internet.
You couldn't Google. Google didn't exist at this point. Hard to imagine that from the point of now, so we, we build everything from scratch. Wow. And we worked very successfully with the babies, we had a 90 percent success rate, still then.
The basic approach was to, to, to get the child back into self revelation, but make them hungry so you don't feed them via tube. Because if you fed via tube, it's basically, you're not hungry. It's like after taking breakfast, surprise, nobody takes [00:04:00] breakfast. of the lunch. Nobody takes lunch. So that makes sense.
But there was a group of children, especially premature born children after diaphragm hernia surgeries, who just basically, you have the feeling that they never get hungry. So that they were not, massive. They were usually very skinny and they would just, you make them hungry or you don't feed them by a tube and they were just happily running around and they wouldn't start to eat.
And it would be like, yeah, at some point they would do that, but it takes a while and they lose lost weight dramatically. It was a pain for everybody. The parents were stressed out. The kids were stressed out and I was stressed out at this point. So it's just like, because the feeling something is not right.
There's something I don't get, there's something I don't understand. This is a theory, but it doesn't apply to all the children. [00:05:00] And in the years later, we started doing research, and at some point we saw the eye movements where the kids basically moved their eyes, always left up, and you could see them dissociate.
So they were basically going out of the room, they were not there. And we get this feeling of I'm alone in the room right now. You, you, you basically, it's like the baby left the room, but it was still sitting there. Yeah, that was the turning point. It's like, okay, there's something going on, which drives a baby out of the room and which basically give me the feeling of being alone.
But even more, it gives me the feeling, okay, there's somebody who's, really scared of what's going on and try to protect themselves. And at this point we figured out, okay, if, if you are very, very scared, so just assume you don't tell anybody that you're very scared, you always try to play over it and babies are good at [00:06:00] that.
They can play over that. You will not see that they're scared because if you do that, everybody leaves you alone on your own. And nobody will do something harmful to you. But, when you make them hungry, they get even more scared. Yes. They really just sink into this hole where okay, something is happening in my body and I can't control it.
And I don't know where this come from. And everybody's not trying to feed me. And I don't know what to do. So that. We decided, okay, for these children with post traumatic feeding disorder or post traumatic stress disorder, we need to do it completely different.
So what we tried first, or what we do still do is working with the body. Because to, to establish feeding or eating, you need three relationships. You need a relationship to food or spoons or bottles or breast. [00:07:00] So just like this is the object. Which is nice, which tastes good. And, so, you get the relationship to that.
You need a relationship to somebody else because as a baby, you can't go to the fridge and get the yogurt out. You have to have somebody to feed you. So a mom, a dad, a grandma, a nurse everybody need this relationship. And that's something people often forget, you need a relationship to yourself as well.
Because you have to need to feel the hunger, it's just like, oh yeah, I feel hungry and I want a steak. I feel thirsty, I want a glass of water. I feel, so that's always, the sentence already said that. I feel. You can add the word me, and this is what I do now. But if you are traumatized as a baby the best strategy to don't feel the pain is to don't feel anything.
So in a state of dissociation, you don't feel pain. You don't feel hunger. You don't feel the need. Because you switched off. [00:08:00] It's just to add that it's beautiful there. If you switch yourself off, it's, it's great. We do that as adults all the time. If there's a presentation, it's boring. We switch off and think about something else.
And it's like, or if you drive a car, we would just switch off. So it's not totally pathologic to do that. And it's beautiful because. So driving a car for two hours is boring. So, so coming back to the babies to switch off basically means that you can't feel the need and working with body means to basically get their sense of a body back.
So that the body is not just a matter of trauma and concern and pain, but something you can enjoy. So by, getting in contact, that means as psychologists, you're trained not to touch people. We are touching babies. Yeah,
Mary Coughlin: we
Markus Wilken: do that all the time, [00:09:00] because that's the way to bridge the contact and you would feel the baby gets very rigid when, I touch the feet, when I touch the hands, when I get into eye contact, when I touch the belly.
Or it doesn't. And that will tell me a lot about, okay, there's something going on right now. I don't know what exactly is going on the baby, but it concerns the baby or scares it. And I can tell the baby, you don't have to be concerned. You don't have to be scared. And that works as as perfect as like for adults.
If I tell them, you don't have to be concerned. You don't have to be scared. Everybody would tell you, sure, I'm not concerned at all anymore or scared. No, you're not. It never works. So, you just get a little step back and see like, okay, that's, That's too much contact right now. I step a little bit back because you're trying to protect you.
That's fine. It's now approaching you a little bit more. It's like, okay, is, is that enough contact now? Is this a good distance? Can [00:10:00] we, can we get into a joyful interaction? Yeah. And we, we try to get the baby into this joyful interactions back. So this is why we tell that an effective revival. So we want to evoke these emotions of the body like, like, Oh yeah, that's, that's great.
That's nice. That's, feels good. I feel myself good.
Mary Coughlin: So many things are flying around in my head right now, Marcus. This is so fascinating. I read a lot of the the trauma literature and some of the trauma leaders talking about this idea of cellular memories and that the body remembers.
And, and I think what you're doing right now is just describing what that looks like. And it sounds like the, what you're trying to build. Is a trusting relationship with this person who has learned that the world is scary and and that you can't trust anybody. Is that is that that is that the vibe that you get with [00:11:00] that defensive behavior from the baby?
Markus Wilken: Yes, absolutely. And yeah, the body keeps the score. And now we can mention all the people, the books we read. So, so we don't build that all on scratch. We are not sitting there and that's all our ideas, but sorry for that. Books like from Kolk or from Porteous or from Peter Levine. They're just like big inspiration or from Alan Shore.
So you read that and see the babies. Or Daniel Stern, The Mother of the Constellation. I read that and he's like, And this guy never met somebody with a feeding tube. He just described exactly what is going on. This is just. Or babies. Yeah. And this explains what is going on. So the defragmentation of perception and feeling.
Just like, okay, I have to be completely aware, I have to control the room because I never know who's, what's happening. And the bad part about us [00:12:00] being nice. So the doctors are nice, the nurses are nice, the therapists are nice, still then you do blood samples. Right. And this is not, I'm not telling you be, be rude as a doctor or be rude as a nurse, but, but if somebody is nice, you would expect something nice from, from this person.
And then it's still, I'm sorry, but we just have to do the blood sample. It's just medical necessary. We still have to do the suctioning. We still have to do the repositioning. We still have to intubate you. Which is hard for, for the nurses and the doctor works a couple of years and you could, it's not something like, Hey, let's do it.
It's great. No, but it's part of the job and to keep the baby alive. Yes. But the baby also learned that, that the, this basic trust where just like somebody will be nice and do good to me. It's not 100 percent applying because the people are telling you nicely and then still the blood [00:13:00] sample is coming.
Wow. And it could be the same person that's in a different different moment. Right. So, that to the defensive is also not just to, to feeding, it's also to persons because they don't know. I just had a meeting yesterday with a five year old. So, Microprem at her at her birth, very low birth weight she's not gained weight over the last five years.
So she's skinny mini, she had a G tube, everything else we tried, don't gain weight. So they were just coming into the room and this five year old was just standing at mom looking at me and it's like, okay, you're dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, okay, cool. You don't have to talk to me. It's like, cool. And then I just told you, look, so this is what's going to happen now.
Nothing. You don't have to do anything here right now. You can play with the toys. There's toys around. Do whatever you want with the toys. You can throw them to the room. I [00:14:00] don't care. It's your play. I just want to talk to mommy and daddy. You don't have to feed. You don't have to eat. You don't have to drink.
You don't have to do anything here. And you could see it like, relax. The important part is if you give this promise, you have to keep the promise. Yes. If I'm now of a half an hour. So now it's time that you would show me how good you can eat. She would just like, you told me that nothing will happen, but I don't want to do.
And the situation will be done. So at the end, I was just starting with being a little bit funny, ridiculous. And she's just like, no, that's not true. You don't have 11 fingers. No, you don't have 11 fingers. That's not true. And then you get connected, but she also is just like, she shows you like, okay.
I have my experience. I have my share with guys like you. I don't trust you. Yeah. That's something important that you would [00:15:00] be a use that babies trust us. Yes. Social. They're just like, Oh, somebody smiles with me. That's great. I'm smiling back to home address. Babies don't do that. They don't trust you. Yeah.
So you have also them saying that it's beautiful outline from best of all I call best of fun. They're called from short from everybody. They aren't defensive. It's a good reason why they are so you can tell them don't be defensive after all the experience, but you have, you have to gain that trust, and you constantly have to gain your trust.
It's not enough to okay now we're synchronized, you constantly have to synchronize with the babies. Mm, interesting. And the funny part is if they, if they get the trust back and they sense themselves again, they're just so happy. They're basically like, they switch on the whole the whole nervous system.
They, they start to smile, they start to, to, to be open. They start to talk. They, they make [00:16:00] developmental progress because if you constantly monitor your environment and be like, okay, I have to keep you out of. Me, you can't take them in. Yeah,
Mary Coughlin: you can never rest. No. Have you had any situations where babies have had a history of medical trauma, have had the feeding challenges.
You've been able to work with them and reestablish, That sense of embodiment enjoy with mealtimes now and things look great. And then maybe they have another acute event or something. And do they do you find that they can slide back into that post traumatic feeding? That
Markus Wilken: could happen. But it usually doesn't happen.
So, so stuff like that happens when you have a child with a, with a heart condition. Ah, yeah. With surgery, for example. And then everything is cool, but they need another surgery. But [00:17:00] the surgery is scheduled, it's planned. And, and we know when it's happened. So what we, we follow up with all families for at least six months, but if they tell us like, look, in three years, there will be the surgery, we're just like, well, tell us four weeks before and we'll be there.
So we will monitor with you. We will talk to the medical team. We will make sure that you're safe. And when the parents like, okay, now it's still under medication, still drowsed and has a feeding tube right now. It's like, yeah, he can't swallow right now because of his fentanyl. You can't swallow.
It's not possible. We just have to wait until he is waking up. So now he's waking up. How does he react to you? How does he look like to you? How does he react to touching you? It's like, oh, he's reacting fine or is not. Okay. Okay. Then be there, read a book, get the next Harry Potter edition and read because he will listen to you.
And when you sit there, the tension in you will rise. Do [00:18:00] something, read a book. You have a beautiful voice. Read it loud. All the other kids will love you for that as well. And with that, you can basically prevent that. If you prepare the parents for what's coming to prepare the kids for what is coming, and usually they go through that irritated, but I don't have seen kids completely going back to school one and completely collapse.
Yeah. So with babies, it's easier if you have three, four, five year olds. It's a little bit different. That's a different word because the kid has an awareness of who the kid is, what is his identity, and his identity is I'm switched off. Right,
Mary Coughlin: right.
Markus Wilken: So then to basically get into an emotional situation again, if [00:19:00] you have developed the concept that this emotion is not for me, that's for somebody else.
I don't need that. Right. It's way harder still then it's works, but it takes longer and it's very different work. Because you basically have to tease the emotions out of the kids. Mm-Hmm. . So, and we know each other. So, you know, I'm have the tendency of being, having a different certain side of view more.
Yes.
Mary Coughlin: Yes. And that's helpful.
Markus Wilken: Yeah. Did you sell just stupid stories, which doesn't make sense? And the kids tell you that, no, no, no. It's that's not like that. It doesn't snow in the summer. Yes, it does. Look outside. It snows in the summer. No, it doesn't. The sun is shining. It's ridiculous. Don't tell me that.
So, so you basically coach them a little bit out so that you. You cast doubt on their dissociation. You, you basically, you're not dissociated. I am. You're not. I am. You're not. [00:20:00] I want to keep you in my cage. No, you don't want to. It's like, I want to. And so, you basically, you tease out the emotions because somebody gets angry at this moment if you tell them, like, don't.
Mary Coughlin: Well, I mean, and it's really the way you're describing it too. It makes me feel like this really fun and beautiful dance to foster a relationship that is not threatening. That is fun. That kind of naturally allows the child to kind of. to open up to you without any fear. I mean, it, it feels like just the longer you live with the fear, the more it gets locked into the system.
And so you, you can't pick the lock anymore. You have to blow it up with dynamite, but that dynamite's not going to work. So you have to really. Yeah. It's amazing. I I mean, just the detail and the level of attunement to the behaviors of the children and the, and even the baby. I mean, when you had said about the eyes and, and how the eyes do [00:21:00] this I forget now, which, which direction, but one way and up.
And it indicated to you that something was wrong that something that that child had left the room. I mean, that's really a special skill that I think the majority of folks. Don't even dial into,
Markus Wilken: yes, in a way, so you will find a lot of literature. So if you look back over the last 20 years, you will have learned that premature babies have three psychological issues. So one of them is attention deficits. Yes, without hyperactivity. It's only attention deficit. They're just not focused. The second is the effective development is very flat.
They're a little bit withdrawn. And then there is a problem sometimes with social relationships. Even now is great of the behavioral, premature behavioral [00:22:00] phenotype. I think ~ ~
~yeah, you're right. Is basically is the description ~of it's dissociated person. Wow. Just like your attention is not there because your attention is always scanning the room.
Yes. Your your emotional is not there so you have active response because you don't want to be affected and social relationships are scary because you know, don't know what happened. So, if you look at just take the same data and it's tons of data, it's just like, book loads of studies. And they come out to the same conclusion all over the world.
So it's New Zealand to, to Seattle. I went around the world, same results. And the second you will now find a kid's dog now on the autistic spectrum, but they're not really autistic. They're unusual aspect of it was just like, well, This is basically like a blackish blue. It's black or blue. It's like, you can't be unspecific autistic.
This doesn't speak to you. It's like a happy [00:23:00] depression. Ah, okay. Just like from the pattern, because it's very distinct. And for the premature children, it's also, this is this withdrawal, which makes them appear autistic. But if you work with them on their affective load, it's gone. Wow. So it's, it's works.
And coming back to the feeding tube, so where we just exit the road a little bit, if you don't feel your body, if you don't have relationship with your body, you can have the most sensitive parents. You can have the best treatment program all around experts, whatever the baby doesn't feel it.
And it would be like, okay, we bring in all the experts and your parents are lovely. Why don't you want to eat? Because I don't feel myself. Yes. Yes. And the point is, and that's something very important to understand, it's not a technique, or it's not, not something that we always have to be aware [00:24:00] that the baby has to do it.
So, when we offer some treatment or some program or sometimes we do step one, two, three, four, five, and then the baby will eat, or we do step six. seven, nine, and then the baby will eat. But the baby doesn't know that we are doing step one, two, three, four, five. It's not aware of the treatment program.
It never asked for a wean. Yes. It never called me. I did never get an email from Ms. Riemann's like, Hey, Marcus, could you do a wean because I have a feeding tube? Surprisingly, it never happened. So again, we have to win the baby for the process. And we always have to be aware of that's the baby who has to do it.
Yes. That's the decision of the baby. And, when the baby's traumatized come back, it's the decision.
Mary Coughlin: So it's, it's a really about, I mean, in, in the work that you're doing and, and with your colleagues and your whole team, it sounds like, and you'll correct [00:25:00] me if I'm wrong, you have to create the the environment Both physical, I would imagine, to some extent, but definitely relational environment that then kind of sparks that baby's, I don't know, sense of agency, sense of embodiment.
I'm not, I'm not sure. Yeah.
Markus Wilken: There's something with that, just like of, of inner awareness also, just like, oh yeah, that's, that feels different. And it's a feeling. It's not like. Because we look different. Well, we look different because we always work in shirts which can easily wash. So we never wear a suit or tie.
So, so we look very much like the people from the coming out from the streets, something, somebody normal, somebody not overly looking professional, because that raises alarms. If somebody looks like a professional, you can't trust them.
Yes. Yes. And then you just get [00:26:00] into the relationship and you just It's, it's just like the inner strive to say, I want to be in a relationship with you. I want to play with you. I really want, it's really what I want. And, and kids sense that. So when I'm talking about, it's not one to step one, two, three, four, five, it's, you can't build a relationship on step one, two, three, four, five.
It's, it's basically flirting with a baby, which tells you always like, okay, I, I'm not getting into any relationships with anybody. It's like, sorry, guy. It is like you can try to flirt with me or try to get into relationship. I will not do that. Mm-Hmm. . And it's like, yeah, I know. I, I hear you.
I can hear what you're saying. Yes. Still then my inner strife is to get into relationship with you, to playful and into joyful interaction is like, because I, I can sense that in you. You would love to do that.
Mary Coughlin: I like that. I like the selection of the word flirt. Because that really does it. That is what you're doing.
You know, when you're flirting with [00:27:00] somebody, you're not threatening them, you're playing with them. And the level of authenticity is very, I mean, Babies are just such cool humans because they can tell when you're faking it. And so you really, have to show up authentically. You can feel your passion.
This is like so wicked awesome. And I've had the privilege of being in person with you. And I can just feel all the loving energy that you have for this work that you do. ~I mean, is there any kind of wisdom that you can kind of share about, you know, you've been doing this for now, a couple of decades. ~
~And~ how has this journey expanded your understanding for just the, the, the relevance of a trauma aware, a trauma informed perspective, not just with this unique population, but just in general, has it, has it impacted that at all or how you look at the world at all?
Markus Wilken: So it has a huge impact.
And a positive and a negative and the negative is built on a misunderstanding. So the term trauma can scare people. When you're working in a [00:28:00] hospital or you talk to doctors and we do that a lot. And check like, look, that looks like post traumatic stress.
And it's like, wow, that can't be traumatized. The baby is like, or, or even the nurses, because. If you be aware that you maybe traumatized the baby, it basically gives you a very bad feeling. Now I traumatized the baby because I suctioned it and it's like, and I was like, look, we can work on trauma, but for that, the baby has to survive.
There's no way around that. And it's like, could you do an incredible job? And it's unbelievable, crazy hard to do that. And it's minimal work and you don't sleep a lot and you don't get paid like the bank of America president or whoever, and you would deserve it. And you hardly see your wife. So you are really determined.
And it's just something to be aware of. It's not something where you're now have to do everything different. So Misunderstanding is there. And some people are seeing trauma everywhere. And [00:29:00] we see a lot of premature babies who are beautiful, nice, everything, but they're not traumatized. They're not, and that's just a good news.
So so overstating that it doesn't do the baby a favor if you see trauma everywhere and there is a risk for trauma doesn't mean that they have to be. And sometimes we see the history of the child and see like, okay, this child is traumatized and they come in happily playing. It's like, oh, how's it doing?
It's like, okay. Great, wonderful, not traumatized. Parents maybe, child is not. So, so to be a little bit aware of that that it's not a must, that's not a clear path, which goes one or the other way. What it does is that people are reflecting more. It's sometimes just a small difference.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah, I mean, that's really what we've discovered too. It's not about doing more. That that's kind of the, the way we present it.[00:30:00]
It's just about being more, being more open hearted, being more compassionate and just being more attuned to what is happening to that other person so that you can be the buffer. It sounds so simple to say but it, it can get really hard to do to operationalize because you have all these default programming about how you do your work.
From the, from the get go and you think it's insurmountable and you're short staffed and you're this and you're that and all this other kind of stuff and folks just need to kind of reset, I think, and, and the information that you're sharing and you're going to share at our conference in October, which I'm so excited that you'll be part of.
I think gives folks the, the understanding, the wisdom and some tools to begin to transform these potentially traumatic situations into something that will actually foster resilience [00:31:00] and who knows, maybe even post traumatic growth for the baby, for the family and for the clinician too, when you realize that you can actually do these.
Painful things in ways that are less painful that, really help you be the kind of compassionate clinician that you've always wanted to be.
Markus Wilken: Yes. And the point is that what I see in doctors and nurses is that they're good hearted, loving, caring people who are a lot of them are quite burned out.
Challenging job. Maybe have a 24 hour shift. Maybe had to do some very hard decisions.
You don't want to be in this position. That's what I'm seeing. , and it hurts you as a parent still then sometimes you don't say that to hurt sometimes you say that because you're desperate and can't express that in this moment.
You're not in a position to express, and I'm tired too. You're not even allowed to express that you are tired too. [00:32:00] And okay, yeah, it's a doctor, it's a nurse, but it's also a human being who may just have a hard time. And that, that is so healing to, to come together and say like, like we don't have to keep the distance.
Yeah. Between the professionals and the parents, because we're all on one boat and we're on one goal. We want to raise this beautiful child and we want to see it thrive and we want to see it develop. And we want Christmas cards from kids on, on cycles or when they graduate from school or whatever. So that's, that's all, all of our mission.
Get more into contact informal contact. Yeah. So sitting together at a coffee table and not sitting together at a conference. It's not your conference, but sitting there, somebody on the podium and there's a big distance and statistics shooting up and numbers [00:33:00] floating through the room and it's getting totally boring and you get the feeling like, so, okay, we don't share anything, but when you share the energy with the doctors.
And the nurses, it's, it's beautiful because you call them, they call you back and you find the best solution for the child. Right. So I want to pick up something you just said. It's not about doing more. Sometimes it's about doing less.
Mary Coughlin: Yes. Yeah. I love that. And having the understanding that that's okay.
I think a lot of us get this sense that we're on this hamster wheel and we need to just do do do do do do do and just throw more throw more throw more and make it better. And really having the courage based on your wisdom. To just stop and, and reexamine what are we doing now?
And what if we just held back, and that can be scary for folks, especially for intensive care folks, but we're here, we're watching this person. Let's [00:34:00] just take a step back and see what we can discover from what this little person or maybe the family is really trying to tell us. They can inform and guide us.
I mean, there's just so many layers of challenge to this work and and not just NICU, but I think healthcare at large this productivity mindset and this ridiculous detachment from our shared humanity that, that in a lot of situations causes us to dehumanize the people that we care most passionately about, that we're actually trying to help heal.
Markus Wilken: Yeah, I had a discussion with some politicians. So we have we have We have social health care here. So everybody has insurance, everything, and everything is covered. We don't have to worry about that. Not at all. I know it's different in the US. So, so our position is very different because you don't have to worry when your child is born pre [00:35:00] pre pre major.
That you will have, maybe you have to pay a 50, 000 bills. This doesn't exist. But we were discussing is, is how's, is it good in terms of a product, which sell, or is it, is it a value? Yes. Society. So, so if it's a product then you have to sell it and then to make most profit and have maybe a happy client who pays for it.
But if it's a value, the society has to make sure that everybody has the chance to get. at least a minimum chance to get healthy. Yes, exactly. We decided it's a value, but because you don't want to sell your house and just like what is it worth and what is it not worth and, and to, to, to try to capitalize, it doesn't make sense.
So of course we all get, have to get paid. So I'm surprised nobody's paying my rent. [00:36:00] I also have to buy and, and everything that's, that's for sure. But. It's a question if I try to make the maximum money, or if I do the job I want to do, and it's okay, okay, paid. And therefore that's the decision to make at some point.
And that's also something what caused trauma because then it's like, okay, So they have this child, the parents have a private health insurancy, so maybe we could do this and this procedure as well, because it may necessary that we have to do that, but it's like just for sure that the child has two ears and a nose in the middle of the face.
And we make an extra MRI to make sure that there's two ears and a nose.
Mary Coughlin: It does really corrupt, you know, the system that we have currently, it does kind of corrupt, or at least interfere with how health care is provided and, and how it [00:37:00] is operationalized. And gee, Willikers, that could be a whole other thing.
Discussion, but before we wrap up, I do so the podcast is called care out loud. I would love to just hear your perspective on what does it mean to you then in your work to care out loud.
Markus Wilken: So I'm have a very loud voice. People hear me because I'm very tall. Nobody can see it in the podcast, but you can hear the 6. 5 feet. So I, I love to care out silent or quiet. Because what I taking away from my work is. That is so rewarding on the other hand, and that the best way is to to enjoy that in silence or enjoy that in a quiet.
It's like a good glass of wine. You're not yelling at the glass of [00:38:00] wine, it's just poured in, it smells perfectly, it has the right color, it has the right size and you sit there and it's just like this. one glass of wine is just perfect at the right moment. The sun is shining and the weather is beautiful.
So, when I would looking into the future, I want the people to, to, relax a little bit, to step down and say you don't have to do more. You have to listen more. It's, it's easier if you don't try to, work as hard as possible, but as calm as possible. Because babies don't like it if you're stressed out and freaked out and this we have to do tomorrow.
We make trauma informed care. If we do it tomorrow here at the hospital, everybody will be like, just relax, get a sip of coffee. And that's the best way to perform trauma informed care. is doing it a little bit quietly. And that's even louder than any bombs. A [00:39:00] quote from the Smiths, by the way. I
Mary Coughlin: love that.
You're absolutely right. Trauma informed care isn't about traumatizing people to embrace the paradigm. It's really about finding your own path. And And letting it unfold listening to your inner wisdom, just like at the very beginning of our call, the way you were sharing your discovery of your joy working with babies and that level of attunement that you can have.
You can only really discover that when you are quiet, when you are calm and you just listen. And I think that will help guide you into the that, that you want to choose because you have selected a healing roLe. Oh, well, if you want to hear more from this incredibly wise, brilliant, funny, tall guy, please make sure you enroll to the fourth annual trauma informed developmental care conference that will be held in Boston, [00:40:00] Massachusetts, October 13th to the 15th.
Check it out. I'll put all the information down below in the show notes. And thank you again, Marcus. I'm so grateful that you shared your time and wisdom with us.
Markus Wilken: Thank you, Mary. It was blessed. It was a pleasure.
Mary Coughlin: You're so wicked kind. Thank you very much.
