Jen Deeney
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Mary Coughlin: [00:00:00] Well, I am so wicked excited to have Jennifer Deeney with us. Jennifer is a nurse manager At a level three NICU over in Liverpool, England.
And I'll just jump right in, Jen, and ask if you can give us a little bit of a story about how did you arrive at your current role?
Jen Deeney: So I've been a neonatal nurse for a very long time, but I actually started in adult nursing. And one day I passed the neonatal unit and thought, oh, I'll give that a go.
And here I am 25 years later as head of service for a neonatal unit. I've worked in neonatal transport. I've worked in medical neonates, surgical neonates. I've worked in London. I've worked the south coast of England. I've worked the north of England. I have a love of the care we give for families. I love the fact that we can make a difference. I love the fact that NICU, for me, isn't just about intensive [00:01:00] care of the baby. It's about intensive care of the family. And for me, that's the difference between a PICU. PICU, they know their children. They know what's best for them in NICU.
We, our families have informed those relationships and as neonatal nurses and doctors and clinicians and AHPs, it's our job to help those families develop those relationships. And that's the bit I love most about my job.
Mary Coughlin: My God. That is just so beautifully articulated. I love how you said the families are still, evolving.
I mean, we've got newborns and we have new families and these are
Jen Deeney: never met before. Right. So this is new. They don't know each other and that's our job to help facilitate that. Isn't it? Yeah.
Mary Coughlin: Oh, sure. It's scary. And I don't know that we do a really good job educating nurses and even myself, you know, getting a good education myself around.
What does that mean? [00:02:00] I remember In physiology, nursing school or adaptation to extra human life. Do you remember those lectures and stuff? And they do them for orientation to adaptation to extra unit in life. And when I was listening to you, I was thinking, how about adaptation to extra human in your life?
Jen Deeney: And I think you're right. I think, you know, we go to nursing schools, don't we? And we focus on the anatomy and the physiology. We touch on the sociology and the psychology of it, but we touch on it. It's not seen as a fundamental part and in lots of parts of nursing, it's not as fundamental as it is.
And neonates. Yeah, because we have already. Got relationships and boundaries and rules set up in our sphere. But when it comes to neonates, none of that is there. And it doesn't matter if that family come to neonates for an hour or they come for a hundred days, right?
That shift is huge, isn't it? Because it's not what anybody had planned. And I think, as nurses, we're not [00:03:00] taught how to deal with that. What we think is, baby, it's amazing, the baby's alive, everybody's happy, isn't it great? Mm hmm. I work in a maternity hospital, and ~ ~ everybody that walks through our door has a trauma
Mary Coughlin: yeah, so true. I mean, I think I like that you touched upon the maternity side of it too because I think just in my evolution of, looking at everything through a trauma lens and just expanding that lens to really see the, the layers of trauma that individuals experience across the perinatal continuum, although there's a backstory behind that, right?
Jen Deeney: Absolutely. Because if you think some of our families have been through IVF and disastrous IVF, some of them have been through fetal medicine.
Yeah. They've been on this journey, not known if their baby will survive or not. what condition the baby will come out in. Some people have a trauma mid [00:04:00] pregnancy. I don't think we're ever fully prepared for that as neonatal nurses. We don't see that side of it. Our focus is on the small little being in front of us.
And actually the family sometimes becomes the add on and we get frustrated because we can't understand their frustrations or their worries and their angst.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. And I think a lot of times too, we end up putting a lot on them. That they're somehow supposed to tell us what they need, not recognizing that, guess what happens when you're in the throes of trauma?
You're not operating on all four levels, you know, you're just in survival mode, you're freaking out. And I, as the nurse. Don't even realize that you're freaking out, I mean, I'm like, no, he's fine, he's alive, but you're like,
Jen Deeney: I don't think we recognize that sensory overload for the parents either.
You know, it's the noises, the smells, everything is different. Than what it should [00:05:00] have been as a baby in a crib in a beautiful little outfit and a hat. And then we have the further complications of. Cultural boundaries, right, and not understanding people's frustrations because we don't understand their language or their ways and that's something that we don't take upon ourselves to understand sometimes.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. And I think it's kind of layered there is an individual responsibility for me as that bedside nurse practicing evidence based holistic care. But there's also, organizationally there's responsibility. There's responsibilities that should kind of funnel in from our discipline specific organizations, like neonatal nursing associations
so it's multi layered, although we do tend to blame the individual. It's, it's a very complex situation that I think needs that multi pronged approach. Approach, information, education, that this is really what we need. And not just flapping the gums, but actually,
you know, putting your foot to the pedal
Jen Deeney: and I think it's [00:06:00] that level of understanding, isn't it? Of, I'm not a dog. This is where we as nurses and clinicians choose to be. And we get frustrated sometimes, because we're busy and then these people come in on top of us and how dare they get in our way and what we're doing and we forget sometimes. That they're not add ons, that the parents are part and parcel of care delivery. And actually we haven't explained any of this to them, that this is going to be hard.
They're going to get frustrated. They're going to get worried. It is going to be really difficult. And you know, there's some days you might think I'm not really good and I'm not doing what I can do. But we don't reassure them that we're always doing the best that we possibly can. Yeah. And I think, I think it's those conversations that we have to be braver and happen.
Mary Coughlin: Exactly. And not also from a clinician perspective, taking things so personally that, you know I remember when I first started talking about this, Jen this [00:07:00] idea of trauma and trauma informed care in a NICU setting. And some folks got really upset, and saying, are you trying to tell me that I'm traumatizing the patients?
I love my patients. I love this work and helping people realize I don't believe that before today, you were, intentionally traumatizing the patients. We're all operating from the best information that we have at the time. But once you start to understand that this is traumatizing, that this is disruptive, that this is not in their best interest, short term or long term, then, if you're not stepping up your game and changing how you're doing the job, then maybe I do think that you're traumatizing your patient.
Jen Deeney: Here? Yeah, I do. And because we have this expectation, don't we? Your baby's alive and it's here and we're giving it the care. So just be happy. Exactly. Just be happy. And actually that's, that's not acceptable. So it's not, [00:08:00] it's not acceptable. We choose to be there. They don't choose to be there.
They don't understand. And as, as practitioners, it's our job to help them understand, and especially as neonatal nurses. It's our job to bring that caring, that fundamental part of nursing, which isn't about the drugs, and it isn't about the lines, and it isn't about all those other things. It's about caring.
Yeah. And I think sometimes we forget the caring part. I know we've had families who've come across as difficult. Yeah. And all I hear is why haven't we used the zero tolerance policy? Well, I've had a conversation with them and because I've took the time to have a conversation with them. I've understood that they're worried and they're frustrated and they don't understand.
And so why would I take a mom and dad away from their baby? And put zero [00:09:00] tolerance in when all they need is for us to spend time with them to help them understand and explain to them what's going on in the simplest language we can because everybody isn't educated to the same level.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah, yeah. I love how you're explaining this too because I'm, I'm thinking of several clinical experiences in my own practice I didn't understand that they were freaking out It's the way we get it cultured, right?
In our nursing practice that when anybody starts raising their voice or they start acting angry or disruptive, we would hit the button, the code gray button. Security would come charging up and I mean, if you want to make a bad situation worse, Go ahead. Activate
Jen Deeney: the policy. You know, I see these signs in hospital, we will not tolerate poor behavior towards our staff.
Actually, I went to a children's playground, I think it was, [00:10:00] or a funfair type thing. And it said, if you're frustrated, we'll try and understand. Right. And that's just flipping something so simple. It's saying exactly the same thing, isn't it? Yes, it is. It is. And I think we sometimes bring some of this stuff on ourselves because you come in, Mary, and you're the difficult parent.
Yeah. And I haven't even looked after you and your family, and I know you're the difficult parent. And I've, I've had no interaction, but that's exactly what I'm describing you as. And how difficult must that be for a family?
Mary Coughlin: Oh, they are on high alert there.
I mean, if you think about it, from a physiologic perspective, they're in fight or flight mode. So they are keen as beans, just watching everything, feeling everything. And it's freaking them out even more. And if we can't slow down and take the time to recognize that. But again you know, there's an education piece to this that folks need, you know, I'm not trying to throw all my colleagues under the [00:11:00] bus, but, you know, just to open up your heart.
I think one of our challenges is all the lines, all the tubes, all the labs, wicked, sexy stuff, right? I mean, if you're an adrenaline junkie, often running and you just detach from that whole human side. Of the work.
Jen Deeney: Yeah, and I think sometimes we, we run with the excuse, don't we? Or we're too busy.
Yeah, exactly! We're too busy. But yeah, we're not busy to check our phone. Or we're not busy to sit at the desk and chat to our mates. But actually, when was the last time we sat? And just had a chat with a parent. Mm hmm. Yeah. And just said, how are you doing today? You know, what have you been up to? Are you reading any books?
You know, just general conversation. Because these families don't have that easy conversation either. Because when they go home, everybody wants to know how the baby is. But how's mum? How's dad? And I think there is something [00:12:00] about learning those fundamentals again. Bringing them back in understanding that actually we can make our own jobs so much easier if we try and understand those around us.
Mary Coughlin: And it's also to how we approach it we're not saying, I need you to do more. I mean, you're already doing all the do's, but what I really want you to do is I just want you to, like you, you described, right? Just open up and be more of who you are. You're a nurse.
You're a loving, caring, compassionate human being. Step into that and I think sometimes people need the skills because sometimes I think folks Retreat or don't engage because they're afraid they don't know what to say. They don't want to make it worse I don't want to upset them, all these crazy things that yeah, and you
Jen Deeney: know what Mary?
I might sound like an old dinosaur saying this now but I think The mobile phone and social media has taken away that [00:13:00] ability to talk. I agree. And I think we've lost that art of just conversation with people that aren't people we associate with.
And I wonder if there's something that we have to do about bringing back the art of conversation.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. Oh, I agree. A hundred percent. And now we're trying to figure out, how do we bring ourselves back to that shared human experience that, genuine, communication skills and not just giving you my highlight reel but actually getting into the nitty gritty of being a human being.
Jen Deeney: And do you know what, Mary, when the chips are down, we can really do this. And I'll give an example. We had a mum who sadly got diagnosed with cancer 20, 23 weeks pregnant. Which was, and she was in final stages. She was 30 and she kept going till her little baby was born at 27 weeks.
But we had to decide this mum was in palliative care. We [00:14:00] 27 weeker, she's on her own, she has nobody else, and you know, when we sat as a unit and talked about it, what we realised was this was a mum that needed to be with her baby, and all of a sudden, the empty space we had, we were able to bring the mum down there, be with her baby.
We managed this baby on the bed beside her dying mum. for like 10 days. And we brought our gynecology team down to care for the mum. And what we had was real nursing care. And one of the girls who spent the most time, ~ ~ she found those skills of caring, of communicating, of understanding the importance of a connection, we knew that one or both of them may die, but actually what we did was phenomenal.
And what she's walked away with is a whole new view of what it is to be a nurse. [00:15:00]
Mary Coughlin: That's beautiful. Unbelievable. And I think, you know, we need to have those awarenesses, right, those discoveries, that if it can happen in that kind of a situation, it can happen any time.
Jen Deeney: I think if we learn to accept what we need to do, we manage that trauma so much better. We managed the trauma better because we'd accepted that this is what was going to be and it was going to be difficult and it was going to be hard and it was going to be sad and it was going to be all of those things.
But because we managed that really well with her and because we managed it well as a team and we talked and we debriefed and we looked out for each other and we said it was okay to be sad and to cry and to do all those things. We managed it beautifully and yet it was still a trauma. Right. And I think that's the bit where I want to get on a NICU is that we can manage the day to day trauma.
Yes. But still feel proud and [00:16:00] understand our purpose. Yeah.
Mary Coughlin: And that right there is the thing in the absence of that, that's why folks are getting burnt out. That's why folks are leaving because they feel so unfulfilled. They feel so undervalued because the reason why I went into nursing was.
to, walk alongside someone else during a really difficult time, right? Ease someone's suffering really be of service. But oftentimes in, at least this is my experience, in intensive care environments, you can feel so distracted by all of the checklists. Yeah. That you, You almost kind of like you know, like you mess your own self up because you, you get so distracted by that stuff and that you don't think you're able to be fully present in the way that you
Jen Deeney: want to.
And yes, we do one to one nursing. And we do minimal touch. And minimal interventions on those smallest of babies, [00:17:00] which mean actually for a lot of the time we're just watching. Right. And actually, I think we use it as an excuse to keep trying to keep a step away. Hmm. And I think we're afraid to touch into that part of it.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. It can be scary, right? I mean, it can be scary for me to lean into your suffering, especially if I don't even know you, cause you don't really know these parents well. And I'm afraid that I may say the wrong thing. I may make you angry and I'm, I'm not there because I'm running these different scenarios in my head that oftentimes just keeps me.
More away from you, right? Cause I'm, I'm afraid. Yeah.
Jen Deeney: And I think it's about managing that fear, isn't
Mary Coughlin: it? Yeah. And I think that those kinds of experiences, though, I mean, if we can recognize, and you and I were sitting here chatting, and we see [00:18:00] this, then how can we, or you, and you know, because you're in the role, right? How do I really step into? This work and will I be okay? Will I come out? Okay, on the other side, how do you navigate
Jen Deeney: that? And this is probably going back to something maybe we touched on earlier when we were just chatting before we started.
I think it's about people understanding the reality of the environment they're coming into. If you're becoming a neonatal intensive care nurse, it's going to be really difficult.
If you're going to look after high dependency babies, it's going to be really difficult. If you're going to be looking after babies who are getting ready to go home, who've suffered traumatic injuries, have HIE, it's going to be difficult. And I think there's this perception when people come to neonatal nursing, that it's all nice and smooth.
There's no peaks and [00:19:00] troughs. And I don't think they fully understand the emotion of a neonatal unit. The highs and the lows and the angst and the frustrations and I wonder do we do a disservice by when people start not helping them fully Understand and help them navigate through those emotions.
Is there something we could do at the start? Yeah, because we send them on courses, don't we, to become neonatal nurses where they learn the skills of the blood gases and the fluids and the medications But do, we sit them down and say, well, what if it's a bad day and you've given a baby the wrong breast milk and the parent is upset.
And you're upset because you've made a mistake. So for me, I just wonder if there's something that we need to be more honest and real about of what it's like to work in a neonatal unit.
Mary Coughlin: I love that. I've really not heard anyone talk about it in that way.
But I think you're absolutely right. One of the thoughts that was coming up in my head is, how we in [00:20:00] general view babies and, this is a really strong word, Jen but, there's almost a dehumanization of babies, you know, that, they're not really people yet.
And they are, beautiful little souls, they're beautiful little people. But if we don't recognize that, sometimes that can impede our capacity to fully connect to the depth that maybe folks in a PICU, when you're working with a toddler, there may be that different awareness.
Jen Deeney: Throwing this out at you. No, I think you're right. And I think especially at the lower end of viability, Yeah, yeah. We're definitely going, I can understand why this baby might die, because this is only a little 23 weeker. And I do think there's something else in the language we use, because we'll call them our babies.
Yes. And so we're, we're not getting that, we're kind of, Keeping the family at bail. ~ ~
Mary Coughlin: Right.
Jen Deeney: But again, it's protection. It's protection from having to feel what we might [00:21:00] feel. And that's difficult. And we have probably between 40 and 50 deaths a year on our neonatal unit. And that's a lot of babies.
But the reality is we're a tertiary center that takes babies that come in with anomalies that are often life limiting. And unfortunately we have babies that don't be. And we have to help our staff understand and support them through that.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. But, well, I think too, you know again, I think this is our training and this is probably, you know, global medical nursing, you know, health professional training.
Is it's just so cognitively driven and and hey, I love, research. I love all that stuff, but it's not like one or the other. I think we have a hard time integrating the cognitive with the compassionate, really making that connection with the human experience piece so that.
When I lean in [00:22:00] and I know this is life limiting and I know this is going to be sad, but it's part of my job as a healer to be with you and help you navigate this trauma because this is your
Jen Deeney: life. Absolutely. And I think for me, nursing 50 years ago was probably too much of the care inside and we didn't have the knowledge to understand what we were doing behind.
I think now we have all the knowledge but we've left the care and I don't think we found the sweet spot. Not yet. We haven't found the sweet spot and I think Some people are coming into nursing because it's a degree. Yeah. And they don't want to do the basic nursing care. They don't want that part of it.
They want to be the researchers and they want to be the managers and the leaders of the future. Actually, we need people in the middle who can absolutely deliver that best care. Not just for the families and the [00:23:00] babies, but for their team. And I think we just, in nursing, and I don't think this is any different wherever you go in the world, I think we've had the Goldilocks, haven't we?
It's too cold. It's too hot. And they haven't found the sweet bit. And I think we really have to, as nurses now, come together and say, we need to find the sweet bit. And the bit that fulfills us as nurses. Not everybody wants all this or all that. Some of us just want what's in the middle.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. Well, because I think what's in the middle is what will serve those that we're here to support
Jen Deeney: best. Absolutely. And that's when your burnout will start to come down. And those people that need to do the research and the leadership will have those opportunities. Those people who want to do the care will have those opportunities, but those that want to do a bit of everything will have that bit in the middle that will really fulfill them and make them feel like, actually, you know what, I went to work today and I did a great job.
Mary Coughlin: Right, exactly. Look at you beam in there. I love it. [00:24:00] Well, I mean, so you've just done so many things. You've had lots of experiences in nursing. So how has your journey through all these experiences expanded or impacted, your understanding of the importance of, this idea of trauma informed care.
Jen Deeney: Think so on a personal level, I suffered a trauma 20 years ago when I lost my husband in a workplace accident. And as a nurse, I always thought the most important part of my job was caring for babies that died and their families because I always knew that that would be the thing that they would always remember.
And I think having been through that trauma myself of losing my husband. And not having been with him when he died made me understand even more the importance of having that experience, regardless of how hard it is. Being able to help a family [00:25:00] have those last moments together is so important. I can remember what the police said to me 20 years ago to the word.
So I suppose for me. I understand trauma on a personal level and I understand the difference we can make because I know the difference it made to me not to be there when Ciarán died. And so for me, that's really pushed me to say, you know, families, their experience on a neonatal unit, whether it's good or bad, whether it's a day or a year. I play a huge part in that, and I know they will remember. So for me, that relationship was really important, no matter how long I was there.
And so that's where my belief in trauma informed care came from, Mary.
Mary Coughlin: It's really about drawing on your own experiences. It's [00:26:00] really using your life story highs and lows to help inform then opportunities that you have to show up for someone else. These are shared experiences, right?
Jen Deeney: Absolutely, it's understanding that, people may make the decisions that you mightn't think are the right decisions, but it's accepting that they're the right decisions for them and be okay with that.
~ ~ Whatever the decision, people have a rationale behind that. People have a reason they don't want to sit there or hold the baby when the tube comes out. And we have to respect that and put our own preferences aside. Because while it was important for me to be with Ciarán and I wasn't, it doesn't mean that that's right for somebody else.
What's right is I give them what they need. And I help facilitate and support that. That's what's really right. And I think for me, if we know more about our families and we engage more and we're more [00:27:00] accepting, then whatever trauma comes out of us, we manage it and we manage it much better.
Mary Coughlin: Well, how do you then I mean, that's beautifully, beautifully stated. And I think you're right on point. I think for me, the challenge is then now you're in a leadership role. How do you translate that wisdom and help nurture your staff to, to get to that place, right? To have that open heart, to try and Leave your judgments at the door.
Maybe these aren't the decisions that you'd make, but it's not your life. How do you help people step into that place? It's a hard place to go.
Jen Deeney: Yeah. And I think it's not easy. As nurses, we see such a morale of people, don't we?
With different expectations and wants and needs, it's even more challenging. But I do think it comes back to not being afraid to have those conversations. And when there are challenges, not just brushing them under the carpet and going, oh [00:28:00] right, or we'll just do zero tolerance and we just do this.
It's about sitting with staff and saying, did you know or could you understand Or, one of my favourite questions is, well, what would you do if you were in my shoes? What would you do if you were in that family shoes? It might be different. Yes. But is it wrong or is it right?
It doesn't matter nothing is wrong and nothing is right. Exactly. It's what's right for you as a person. I mean, it's hard and it's not a quick fix and it's not something that we're ever going to get on top of, but I do think it's going back to that start in a NICU.
Are we absolutely making sure our staff understand the complexities and building and maturing that and I don't think we're doing it well Mary where I work I think we're on a journey of starting to understand that that's where we need to get to. Yeah
Mary Coughlin: I agree with you I don't think anyone's doing it perfectly it is a journey it is a process and I think what's [00:29:00] needed is leadership like yourself, with that clarity of understanding that it is.
It's a process. People need to be supported and educated. People need to be challenged to look at things differently and help them grow and evolve so that they can show up as their best self.
Jen Deeney: And it's okay to get it wrong, because if we get it wrong, we know the next time, actually, I do this a little bit different, or I think about this a little bit differently.
What we don't talk about is when we get it really right. Yeah. And I think we talk about what we get wrong all the time, but actually, 90 percent of the time we probably get it right, but we just don't talk about it. So therefore, how are we telling people we're doing it right if we don't talk about it?
And for me, we sometimes get caught up in everything that's wrong rather than actually look at all the right things we're doing and actually how can we translate those in.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. Well, we're very punitive, right? I mean, we're a very negative [00:30:00] oriented society species. What you're saying is really, really valuable.
You know, how, how do you get folks? It has to be intentional, right?
It has to be on
Jen Deeney: purpose. Absolutely has to be intentional. And I think it has to be. We have to role model it. It absolutely has to be role modeled. And I think it's about putting your hands up when you don't get it right. You know, I'll be the first to say when I don't get it right. And I don't get it right all the time.
And I think that's what's important. And I think it's funny because people don't expect you to say, Oh, well, actually I didn't do that right. And you troll people and you go, but you're the boss. And I'm going, yeah, but the boss gets it wrong sometimes too. Right. But yeah, I learned from that because I won't do it like that the next time.
Yeah. And I think, again, it's about feeling safe, isn't it? It's about feeling safe to make
Mary Coughlin: mistakes. Yeah. And when you do that as a leader, when you demonstrate that courageous [00:31:00] vulnerability, that courageous authenticity, as a leader, you help people see, Oh, okay. So I'm not this, mess and I'm doing everything wrong.
I made a mistake and oh, well, look at that. I'm human, I'm a human being and I can learn from that. But I mean, to be honest, Jen, right? I mean, there are a lot of settings where it's super punitive, right? We talk about a just culture in healthcare, but we don't practice it consistently and reliably.
Jen Deeney: No, but you know what, Mary. We're the quickest to judge each other. Yeah. And actually, if we didn't judge each other, if actually we said, how can I help you? Rather, how can I judge you? Yes. You know, that person that you're finding it difficult to work with would actually work better and easier. We don't think that we make them anxious because maybe you're really good at your job and you're really experienced and you don't make many mistakes.
Maybe I come in and work with you and you make me [00:32:00] really anxious that I make mistakes because I feel you're judging me. Yeah. And I think for me, it's. It's something about actually, again, back to that art of conversation. Because I don't work with you very often, I don't talk to you. I'll go and talk to my mates in the next room instead.
Yeah. And actually, I just need to talk to you and get to know you. Make me feel like I can say to you, Mary, will you just show me how to do this? Mary, do you know, and I think we've just lost that bit and it comes back to that kindness, doesn't it? And just being helpful, because actually if everybody does a little bit of that, it's like throwing a stone in a pond and those ripples go out.
Isn't it? You know, and if you help me, then I'm going to help the lady next to me because actually you were really nice to me and I'm in a good mood now because I feel really buoyed up. And so when this girl needs help, I don't mind helping her and then she feels happy. I think we sometimes forget What we [00:33:00] can put on other people without even saying anything.
I know
Mary Coughlin: it. I know it. And back to the role modeling thing, you need to work in an environment though, where you see good examples of courage, it does take courage for me to tell you, I'm not sure how to do this. And because there's a big part of my brain that is freaking out saying, you're going to think I'm an idiot, you're going to judge the heck out of me, and I'm going to lose whatever little respect I think you may have for me by saying that, when actually, it can be the boldest thing to do,
Jen Deeney: Absolutely.
Mary Coughlin: It's, it's so wicked hard. So all of this and you've been doing amazing things with your team and I got to meet your team over you know, a few weeks and stuff, just kind of talking about trauma informed care and cultivating resilience. So for you now, with, all the things that you've been navigating with your team, what are your top [00:34:00] priorities?
Particularly with regard to their the challenges that they have in being neonatal nurses, bearing their witness.
Jen Deeney: So that's a really poignant point for us, Mary, because we've actually had a conversation with our team about these exact things today.
And we have said, you know, we've had feedback from various different ways. The team are feeling stressed, the workload has increased. They don't feel like people are helpful. They're feeling there's a blame culture. But what we've said is me and my senior team can write an action plan, but it doesn't mean anything.
Yeah. What we've said to them is you need to tell us what we need to do to make it better. So we need to write this together. You need to guide this. You need to lead this and we will facilitate it. We will make it happen. But you need to tell us what you want.
I know that what they got from your sessions and leading back to them using your words today, Mary. We [00:35:00] know that that's hit spots. We've heard people talk about self care, we've heard people say they're tired of people being negative. And actually, I think we need to keep that narrative up and we need to now start really working on that to say, actually, how do we flip that around?
But it's no point me doing it because you know, you can have a hundred gens and it won't work. It has to be the people on the ground who own this they're not frustrated with me. They're frustrated with each other. And we need to work together as a team, but they need to own that to make the difference.
And I need to facilitate what they need to do to make that happen.
Mary Coughlin: Ooh, I love that word too. I mean, what you're talking about really is co creation. Co creating a strategy and everyone kind of like stepping into what their responsibilities are. So this. Your responsibility is identify, what are the solutions that are going to resolve your pain points and you as [00:36:00] the leader get the, opportunity to then facilitate that.
It doesn't mean everything will fall into place. But that feeling of That co created energy and respect. Absolutely.
Jen Deeney: And it'll mean some people will thrive and it'll mean some people will go, this isn't for me. That's absolutely okay.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah, it is. And, but I mean, although sometimes people struggle with that, I mean in any situation, but really identifying that, this is the way it is. and I have to make a decision. I either can stay here and adapt, because some people decide to stay and continue to be miserable and, that can be wicked toxic, right?
So setting up the, the expectations that if you stay, you're buying into this and you're on board, yeah?
Jen Deeney: And I think that will be a challenge for some people. But I think, you know, It's the right way to go. And we've got a young [00:37:00] team. And I say to them, you need to build this for your future because I will be here in 10 years time.
Yeah. This is your unit. You need to shape it. Not me. I'll help you shape your unit, but you guys will be in my position in 10 years time. And you need to know that you've shaped it the way you want it.
Mary Coughlin: You know what, words popping in my head is that, or a phrase rather, is that idea about clarity is kindness.
Like, you know, you're trying to be very clear with the expectations and the vision for the culture. Because, there are lots of NICUs that are just like, they're on autopilot and they don't know where they're going or what, are the expectations. It's like, show up, you got a pulse, you're good to go.
And that kind of lack of clarity and expectation can really breed that toxicity.
Jen Deeney: Absolutely. 100%. And honesty is the best policy. Be real with people. If you don't have honest conversations, it'll work out [00:38:00] worse in the long run.
Mary Coughlin: Well, let me tell you, my friend, you absolutely emulate what it means in my book, at least to care out loud. And that's the name of the podcast. It's care out loud and live on purpose. And so I just would love to get your insight on that little concept.
What does it mean to you or what does it look like to you to care
Jen Deeney: out loud? I think for me to care out loud, and I've learned this As I've gone along, is that sometimes we have to wear our heart on our sleeve. Sometimes, you know, it's, it's okay to be, we must be really professional and we absolutely should have boundaries, but sometimes we have to wear our heart on our sleeves.
We have to let other people see that we feel and we know, and it touches us. And when I was in adult nursing years ago, a priest said to me. He said, the day you don't feel it is the day you shouldn't [00:39:00] be a nurse. So for me, that's what it is to care out loud, is for us to feel it and to share that with the people around us.
Within professional boundaries, but that can be done.
Mary Coughlin: Absolutely can be done. And when it is done, I think it transcends everything. It transcends the suffering. It transcends the distance and the fear. And it helps that other person feel seen, feel loved, you know, and feel not alone.
Jen Deeney: Yeah. And feel safe.
Mary Coughlin: Ah, yeah. Good word. Okay. So, we're coming down on the home stretch. Is there one nugget of wisdom or insight or something that you've gained over your experience or your career thus far that you'd like to share with the world?
Jen Deeney: I would say you, you're never too busy. to just sit and take a minute or two with a person and have a [00:40:00] little conversation with them.
We're never that busy, regardless of what role we're in. And you will never know what that piece of that minute of time will mean to that family or that person, that nurse or that And how it may change their life or how it may impact their life in the future. Even though it might feel like a stretch for you at the time to give us the difference it can make can be phenomenal.
Mary Coughlin: I feel like you're kindred spirits with Maya Angelou. You know that that expression that she says, they won't remember what you say, they won't remember what you do, but they will remember how you made them feel. Jen, thank you so very much.
I cannot begin to tell you how grateful I am for you to share your wisdom oh, for having me. You are a doll. You are the best.
