Chantel Podcast
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Mary Coughlin: ~ ~ [00:00:00] Well, I am so excited to introduce today's podcast guest, the lovely Chantel Morin. Hope I'm saying the name correctly with the accent. Chantel is a dear colleague and a, and a good friend.
So, how did you arrive at your current role?
Chantel Morin: Oh, thank you so much, Mary, for inviting me to be here. I am so very honored and beyond excited. I think when I got your text, my jaws absolutely just dropped open
so,
so excited and so honored. ~ ~I am a former 27 week preterm baby. Quite a while ago. It was 1980. And you know, there's no surfactant. There's not really anything other than let's intubate this baby and give them 100 percent oxygen, right?
There's, there's one photo when I was very sick and I'm quite literally restrained to the bed, right? And I was Very fortunate in my [00:01:00] own NICU journey very minimal complications two, two bilateral pneumos, chest tubes, nine days on the vent, and that was it. I think I came out and I was told I screamed and I was proving myself from day one that this person's here to stay and say something and fight, right?
No doubt. Yeah. Small but feisty, by definitely. And, yeah. Those were the days in the NICU where you had to be five pounds to go home and you had to be on your due date. So I'm sure it was a very long three and a half months for my family. Born in Tertiary Center and then transferred back to local community.
Also at the time there was a lot of maternal separation. My, my mother was diagnosed with cancer while she was pregnant with me, underwent surgery. So that was the reason I was born early. So she was undergoing treatments at other hospitals. So being able to get her to visit me was limited. But I had a lot of family and a lot of love around me.
They made sure almost always somebody could be with me. And then once they got me into my own [00:02:00] community because the tertiary center was not in my hometown. It was easier for the family to come and do the care and everything.
So I've just, I've always grown up knowing the NICU. I was in my family enrolled me and Dr. Saroj Sehgal's long term study of extreme low birth weight infants. So that meant very, frequently, I would go back to the tertiary center for a day and take part in the study. Every time I would go back, they'd be like, Hey, come on into the NICU.
Hey, this baby was about as big as you were. And so I remember, I have memories of that around age eight of doing that. And I just remember if you asked me when I was five, I was going to tell you I was going to be a NICU nurse because my family always told me you've done as well as you have because of the nurses that care for you.
Mary Coughlin: Oh,
Chantel Morin: so if that was just like, That's what I was doing, and that's what I did. A totally
Mary Coughlin: self fulfilled
Chantel Morin: prophecy, right? Yeah, it was just like I, you know, I told people I was going to give back to others what was given to me. [00:03:00] And at the time, being that teenager, that young person, I think I, I knew I was lucky, but I'd never fully grasped how fortunate I really was to not be blind or deaf or has cerebral palsy or cognitive delays or,
Mary Coughlin: yeah,
Chantel Morin: any of the multitude of other things that I, I could have had.
Healthy, always done well in academics, was never behind, right? Like just did everything I was supposed to do. So went right into nursing school and I'm like, I'm going to be a NICU nurse. And then got to see my first birth and was like, Oh, that's cool. I'm like, I have to do this for a little while.
And that's what I did. I found a love in a community hospital versus a tertiary center. Didn't really like the vibe of the tertiary center. And stuck with labor and delivery for about 10 years, but every opportunity I could, I was in the well baby nursery, learning, talking, what can I see, what can [00:04:00] I do?
And I was also the person that when I left nursing, I'm like, that's it, I'm done, I'm never going back to school. Like, that's it. Within a year and a half, I was back in school. I'm like, I just found myself drawn, like, I'm like, I'm going to know, I want to know more. I'm taking care of these patients. So, I took like a high risk antipartum course.
And that's how I started. And then also early on discovered. I really liked teaching. I was paired with a nursing student one day and I'm like, Oh, I don't know what it was. It was just, maybe it was the confidence boost it gives yourself when you teach something to somebody else. You're like, Oh, I do know this.
Right. Like or just seeing that joy and spark and another person when the light clicks for them or they understand something in that new way. So I, you know, Just continued on that journey, had my own, two of my own kids in there and then our nursery was upgrading. I know the levels are probably different in the US, we're up in Canada.
But we were a well baby nursery, which is a level one. And then we were upgrading to what was called a [00:05:00] 2A.
So I went back to school again completed what was called an advanced practice certificate in neonatal and just transitioned right into our nursery. And it's just like I was home, right? Like it was just where I needed to be and got to care for those babies. And I had another baby myself. As well, I should probably note along this journey, all three of my children are preterm babies.
Late pretermers, but they're still pretermers and then it's still next. Yeah. And the different journeys they all took, two in the NICU, one not but the one not in the NICU, born with a birth defect and surgery and everything that goes along those things as well.
Yeah. And then I got to a point where I needed a little break. I was doing a little too much between being a mom and being a nurse. Took a year away. And amongst all this, I was a clinical teacher as well. While I was, I worked a lot of part time, so I was a clinical teacher and really enjoyed that aspect for quite a while.
Got a opportunity to learn. At a respite home for adults and children with neuromuscular disorders. [00:06:00] As a care coordinator, I learned so much from that, those folks there.
And then it didn't take long, it was about a year and those babies called me back. And I re entered and was just kind of happy being me for a while. And then had the opportunity to attend the Canadian Association of Indian male nurses conference. This was 2019, 2018. And. That's when the sparks really started to fly.
I had the privilege of not only was Dr. Alls there and the honor of just meeting her and listening to her speak. But Dr. Paige Church
Mary Coughlin: she's amazing too.
Chantel Morin: Her presentation was just like, it hit me. And when she listed, I had a little bit of knowledge of developmental care, but not a lot.
I can tell you, like, it was just something we tried to do here and there, but didn't really know what it meant. And when she listed the minor morbidities of preterm infants, and I looked up at that screen, I'm like, [00:07:00] that is my child and there's something I can do about this.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah.
Chantel Morin: When the next five years of my story takes place.
Mary Coughlin: I love the variety of your story revolving around this central theme, because I think having all of those other experiences ~ ~just continue to inform you as you're evolving in not only your professional practice, but how you view your opportunities to make those incredible impacts, you know working in you know I mean, there are aspects of it that You know, it's still call you to kind of think differently about how you engage with someone else, who may be frightened or overwhelmed that as nurses were called to manage, not just the disease, but that human experience of.
A bump in the road with your health or some real, potentially life altering condition, there's [00:08:00] just a spectrum. And so really getting to understand the human dimensions is an important educational piece, right? I mean for everybody, right? But for sure, for nurses.
Chantel Morin: Absolutely.
And I think motherhood did a lot of that to you, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the experiences that my children had my first 36 weeker was an eight day Nick use day for feeding. But did well, and he is going to be an adult in a couple of days and I don't feel old enough to have an adult child. Yeah. And he's a beautiful soul in himself and he's loving and he's caring and I'm, yeah, he's awesome.
And then our second son was a 34 weeker. A five day NICU stay, so shore live, but the recess, the CPAP I, it was a very different journey. My [00:09:00] first son was born in the organization where I worked, and I loved that, and it was great, and people knew me, and I could really just do the mom thing as much as possible with him.
The second son wasn't born there, and he had come off CPAP, and it had been over 12 hours, no oxygen, very stable. The physician was just way too busy to round to, say, start feeds, and I was denied holding him for 12 hours. He just had to lay in the incubator in a very overcrowded, loud NICU, like the other baby wasn't even six, six feet away.
And I wasn't a NICU nurse at the time, but I still remember saying to him, I was like, don't you know what kangaroo care is? Just getting so frustrated. Cause I'm like my baby, knowing then, I'm like, this was crazy. 16 years ago, like he needed to be held his dad had never helped him. I'm like, he deserves to be held.
And now having the knowledge, I do know, and I totally understand that we don't know how much of a genetic is and all that, but [00:10:00] he's had. a lot of challenges in this life that you have to question could have maybe been mitigated or prevented.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. And you know, it's not that, that feeling that you're talking about, about wanting to hold your baby.
I mean, that's just your wisdom, you know your, your embodied wisdom as a mother telling you that, I mean, yeah, we got science to show that, but. Women know, you know, and babies know they need to have that physical contact, that emotional connection, that proximity, that, you know, continuous sense of safety.
And when we, disrupt that I mean, we're culpable, I think, for all of the, implications of that separation good, bad and indifferent, you know, so I mean, I appreciate you sharing that story because yeah, it's, it's critical.
Chantel Morin: You don't forget your birth, but there is still things to be said about me, to me about that birth [00:11:00] that I'll never forget those words.
Oh, yeah.
Because of how they made me feel. And he was still that purple little 34 week baby, I remember laying on the bed, whisked away and I didn't see him for two hours.
Mary Coughlin: And I think, you know, holding on to those feelings for the sake of wisdom, not for the sake of, you know, holding on, but realizing that that's a natural, instinctive maternal response. And so being grounded or using that experience as a touchstone informs you and helps guide you to educate others, using that deep rooted.
Passion and wisdom to help others get out of their own way.
Chantel Morin: I share those exact two sentences that were said to me every time I trained new nurses. Because it still had that, it had such an impact on me, not for the better, right? And it's like, it's what you don't say to people. This is what people should not be hearing from anybody.
Mary Coughlin: Yeah. But [00:12:00] that's, I mean, that's, you know, those are what good teachers do, you know, good wise educators use their own lived experiences to, to highlight, you know, here's your science. But here is the more impactful thing. This is how it affects a fellow human being in such a way. And so I'm sure a lot of those experiences have impacted and informed your journey in, you know, kind of where you're at right now, You know, as a trauma informed professional, as an educator for developmental care across a variety of different clinical settings, if I'm right, and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
But you know, I was hoping that you might share, given your story, right. And the work that you're doing now, how has your journey impacted your understanding about the importance of a trauma informed perspective?
Chantel Morin: I think just now knowing that I think my best analogy is, you know, trauma informed care isn't [00:13:00] icing on the cake anymore.
It needs to be the foundation of the cake. You get your ABCs first, fine. But then, no, but they're not usually exclusive. You can inter They're not, they're almost, yeah, bake them all together. Right? Yeah, so bake them all together.
That's trauma informed developmental neuroprotective care. It needs to be that base foundation. Like, Mary, I'll never forget when I first met you. I'm like, and I'm reading your book and I'm like, how did I turn out okay? Cause by this I should not be okay. I'm like how did I get so lucky? Right. And being so fortunate to be part of Dr.
Fagel's study for so long and going back in 2014. 15 to the book launch of all, of a lot of our stories and seeing the fellow cohort babies, right. That were blind and that were deaf. And it was just so humbling, but then knowing too, that we know what we know now because we can do better. Right. I think my son is what really drove me to [00:14:00] get to where I am now because I didn't want another family to have experienced that because they shouldn't now on top of, you know, he was.
He never, never fit a bubble. So when you don't fit a bubble, you don't get resources. So we were fortunate that we were in a place to support what he needed, but not all families have that ability either. And yes, we're in Canada with so called free health care, but what he needed, none of it was covered.
Like we had to pay out of pocket. So he had Very delayed growth motor skills, which we kind of caught up just in the nick of time. And then a lot of his challenges, not all of them were prematurely related. You know, he was the unfortunate recipient of. Rotten molars by each 3 and 9 crowns and dental surgery.
He has severe childhood apraxia speech, which we know just nobody knows why it happens. It happens not necessarily a prematurity thing he still could barely speak. And then we got him to, you know, an okay place and then he developed pandas, [00:15:00] which is still in one of those very controversial diagnoses, but I can get the support because a lot of people don't believe in that diagnoses and now understanding what I do with trauma and how it affects me.
Like our immune function and that and like always knowing his gut bacteria was very different too from the one specialist we found that talked about dysplasia and stuff and I'm like like it all just started clicking in like that because easily probably it could be as premature to his immune system and the Trauma he went through as a baby that could, and no one's going to know for sure, that just made him more susceptible.
Right? Like that has made him more susceptible. So then I've ended up with a son with sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder extreme, like almost executive dysfunctioning, emotion dysregulation and years of therapy. And I remember when the therapist saying to me one year, she's like, you guys are so committed to him.
And I'm like, Yeah. Why wouldn't I be? I want him to have the best chance he can at life, whatever that looks like. I want him to [00:16:00] have intelligible communication. And if anyone's wondering, he's great. He's almost 16. He speaks pretty darn good these days. He, you know, he's gone into remission with his Tandis.
But it was. Six years. We lost him. That's the only way I can describe it. He was gone from us. He would just drop to the floor and headbang and tantrums and we couldn't help him. And so again, when I saw Dr. Page just present and I just sat there, I'm like, Oh my God, I don't want this to happen to somebody else.
And if I can do something to help it and help it now, because we know. You can't really fix those connections later in life once they're formed, they're formed. Right. And when I, and then I got sharing the conference with coworkers and they're like, Oh, we just heard this great person talk, Isabelle Millette.
You got to contact her. I'm like, okay. So I messaged her and that was five years ago. And. I would never have dreamed in fires that number one, I would meet you and be speaking to [00:17:00] you and have done these amazing retreats and chats with you and to become friends with Isabel. And I am beyond honored and humbled that, you know, I went to the first day I met her, I said, how do I become you?
When I grew up, because there's this amazing person traveling around sharing the love and the knowledge with frontline workers and now we're business partners. I know. Yeah. Now I get to be her.
Right. And that was around the time too, where I said, you know what, I want to do more. I love that I can have impact day to day at the bedside, but I want to have a Larger impact. So I went back, did my master's in nursing education, became a nurse educator. So now I have that ability. To impact a large amount of people who could touch the lives individually.
Mary Coughlin: Right, right. That's the cool thing I think about being an educator. Because I remember actually a similar experience when I had transitioned away from the bedside [00:18:00] into an education role. And, you know, some of my colleagues would say, well, don't you miss the babies? Don't you miss, you know, doing the clinical stuff, you know, and you know, I could honestly say no, not really, because like you said, that spark that you see in someone when they get it, when they feel empowered, when they have their own confidence, you know, just kind of emerge and they step fully into what it is to be a nurse.
It's just such a wicked cool thing. And you get to be a part of that. A small part, but still you get to be a part of it. And so it's not about me doing all of the things the right way, air quotes here, but actually inspiring and educating multiples to go out and show up as their best loving, skillful, knowledgeable selves.
Touching so many more lives. It's super [00:19:00] amazing.
Chantel Morin: It really, it really is. I love education. It's a way harder job than I ever expected, but it's great too,
Mary Coughlin: a bowl of ice cream, but
Chantel Morin: it's still incredible. Yeah, and then getting to learn and grow with them as well sometimes.
Like, learning never ends, right? So the media is like, let's go find out together, right?
Mary Coughlin: And how cool is that though, to, to feel like to feel good and fine about saying, I don't know, but let's go. It's such a powerful teaching experience because oftentimes novices or learners, right?
Not all learners or novices, but you know feel, and I'm using my own self as an example. Sometimes you can feel like I'm supposed to know all this stuff. I can't let anybody know that I don't know something. So I'm always supposed to pretend that I know everything.
And then you've got this incredible role model, Chantel, who's like, yeah, I don't know. Let's go find out together. And that just gives folks permission to [00:20:00] realize that it's absolutely physically and, and cognitively impossible for you to know everything. It's it, you can't do that. And why set yourself up for that.
Versus just saying, Hey, you know what? I don't know that either. Let's go find out and let's learn together and problem solve. And those kinds of learning experiences imprint so much more deeply. Into the learner and and the teacher, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I love it. Love it. Okay, so let's get back. All right, I'm getting back to the education piece, which I absolutely love.
Well, all right, so now you're, you know, you've built this beautiful story of your very early beginnings and how they've informed your professional choices and your own developmental trajectory, both personally and professionally. And now you're about to embark on, this entrepreneurial [00:21:00] transitional role.
Can you talk a little bit now about how that opportunity is positioned to really help you live into your passion and your mission?
Chantel Morin: Absolutely. Just so people are aware,
healthcare in Canada might be free, but we're just as severely under resourced and underfunded especially in the community setting. So.
Mary Coughlin: Same here.
Chantel Morin: Obviously my jam is the late pre dreamers. I, that's what I've always worked. I never worked late. Higher acuity level threes, then. So that's a little scary.
I'll take, I'll take my 32 beakers and up. We've done so good in medicine about helping babies survive.
I'm one of them, but how do we get them to thrive? We know that these babies can have more risk for cognitive delay, autism, ADHD, behavioral issues, lower school scores. Right. This community needs it, because I know if I can make an impact, not only on that [00:22:00] baby right now, and that family, I can change the trajectory of this life and then the whole population, right?
Like I can give somebody a better chance. I live in a community also that is a very high, high level of intimate partner runs, but then we also know there's a trauma for these children. So they got a couple of strikes against them already. Like they can't be dealing with all this other stuff when we can mitigate maybe some of it.
Right. So I'm kind of, you know, just like, okay, educated. This is great. I want to do this. And now I'm like, No, no, no, we got to go bigger here. Like I got, I need the world to know this. I need all these level 3s to know this because I think the level 3s, they do okay. Can they need support too? Absolutely, but there's a bit more money.
There's a bit more funding. There's more research. The community hospitals, number one, are underfunded most, at least in Ontario. I think we only have 7 level 3s and 40 plus level 2s.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Chantel Morin: so that's where the need [00:23:00] really is that our level twos are three different levels so they can go down to as low as 30 weeks.
And I think that the two C's are, from what I can tell, a wee bit more equipped than the two A's and B's. And then often, like myself, the educators in those centers are not dedicated to the NICU. Like myself. I have four other units. So it's, it's besides
Mary Coughlin: You're doing other units.
Chantel Morin: So I am labor and delivery and postpartum and the NICU and the pediatrics department and the women's currently, and we don't have professional practitioners. It's just me. So I don't really need to. Make sure they have the policies based on the best evidence to refer to their practice to, but be at the bedside and support where needed with skills and mentorship as well.
Right. And then everything else that goes with it. So it's really challenging.
My goal is going to be, I want to implement [00:24:00] developmental trauma informed care guidelines in a level two nursery. And I want to publish it. I want to say, hey, look, this is what a community center did. And then I met you. And then I
Speaker 3: met Isabelle.
Chantel Morin: No, once I got into my role and realized, There was a lack of support at the regional and provincial levels.
That's when I started realizing, No, I'm going to change how we care for all babies in the NICU in Canada. Because we can do better. We know better and they deserve better. And so how is that going to happen? Don't know yet. I think Isabelle and I are on a good path. We're just starting out. We've kind of got a good, Site about what's next for us.
Where to go. And Slowly just keep sharing that kindness, that love, that compassion. And I think it's going to get there a little bit at a time. Isabel, I know she's going to come before me, but she's, she's very grounded in French Canada, but not English. So as I have been able to start [00:25:00] making more contacts, I'm very privileged to sit as a director on the Canadian Association of Neonatal Nurses now.
So what that kind of impact and reach looks like as well to make those contacts to say, Hey, like. We offer this great program. How can we support you? How can we help your organization to implement these practices? Because change is hard. I just don't like change. I love change, but I'm one of those people.
Mary Coughlin: I think you're starting in a good place too, because there's already established standards, implementation guidelines, and leading practices. And so the challenge is to just get that word out, right? Here it is, but it can't just be in a book or on a hard disk that say, Oh yeah, that, yeah, we have that.
We have that. Well, that's nice, but are you doing it? Are you being it? Is it living in the space? And the other thing I wanted to just comment on, cause I love, how you're not big into the level three and the, and the intubated babies and stuff [00:26:00] like that.
Totally get that. But I think the thing that's so cool about what you're doing now and what you're focusing on is trauma informed developmental care is disease independent. This doesn't matter. You can be born at 22 weeks gestation or 42 weeks gestation and anywhere in between. And these principles and practices and values right, apply across the board.
And so I think that's the other thing that's such a nice fit. For your passion. And your in your genius, you know, where you really shine is, is recognizing that this just spans the entire spectrum. Parents are parents. I, and I don't mean that in a dismissive way, because certainly there are individual, you know, elements and across every, you know, Fellow human being, but parents need to feel safe.
They need to feel secure. They need to feel empowered. Again, [00:27:00] whether they're parenting someone who is born, you know, at the, at the cusp of viability or anywhere along that spectrum, they are terrified. They are overwhelmed. They need to step into you know, their role with confidence, with comfort, with a sense of being seen and acknowledged and understood and all those things.
So I think. You know, your passion and your mission are perfectly aligned with the job and with the purpose that you've identified, you know? So yeah, I just felt like I had to say
Chantel Morin: No, that's awesome. Because I think, you know, sometimes I get a little frustrated, like, because, you know, you can only have so many projects and so many priorities going at once and some days it's just like, Oh, I wish this was a higher priority and it's not, but.
Even just today, it was a reminder, like, so I've had the honor and privilege of being able to really grow our Eat, Sleep, Console program. Which is our new way of caring for our Neonatal [00:28:00] Abstinence Syndrome babies. It was kind of handed to me when I got there saying, Hey, we're doing this. And I'm like, Okay.
Reached out to like a ton of people. British Columbia, they are like my soul people out there. They get it. Wish I could teleport myself out there. Even had the honor of being able to converse over email with Dr. Matthew Grossman from Harvard, who's the, like, kind of founded this kind of idea. And we implemented it.
And it's, it's roots are in trauma informed care. So I was able to bring this knowledge in a different way about how important it is to keep families together and what it really does and that these families or moms are the medicine now. These babies should not be separated and put in a box because they don't do well.
And when it does happen for either medical reasons. What mom or babe or prematurely, whatever it's like, you can see that baby is not doing well because it needs somebody to love it. Right. And we, we've had some amazing successes in the last year at our organization, [00:29:00] we've significantly decreased our morphine use and not saying that some babies absolutely did morphine.
It's not like the main goal. Absolutely. But the amount of families we've been able to keep together and take a length of stay from an average for us was 16 dayS. Our length of stay is now on average 5. 9 days. Wow, that's incredible. I was able to talk to a mom that went through the traditional Finnegan's model.
Wow. And then trialed our Eat, Sleep, Consume model before we officially launched it. And she, I just remember her saying to me how much better it was, how much more she felt empowered and supported and that she could do this. And she's like, now I have to do this. My kids need me to do this. So I really stressed to the staff when I'm training them, I was like, we're the cheerleaders.
Now we're not the caregivers. We are the cheerleaders for these families, and I think we should be that for every family, whether it be a NICU family or a well baby family, that we are [00:30:00] there to support and help these families grow and learn together and stay together because the outcomes are just so much better.
Mary Coughlin: Oh my gosh, Chantel, you epitomize what it means to care out loud. I absolutely love when you share your clinical stories because they're just So wicked powerful. So let me pivot and ask you 'cause you know, the podcast is Care Out Loud. You know, what do you think that means? Or what does that mean to you to care out loud?
What does it look like?
Chantel Morin: I've been thinking about this one for a couple days 'cause I knew it was coming because I listened to all your podcast. I'm almost all caught up and I, I think for me, it's the advocacy piece that really speaks for it. From both personal and professional, from, you know, those years of having to advocate for my son to be the best that he could be.
And now that I get to be the voice for people that don't have a voice, the babies that don't have a voice, the families [00:31:00] that might not feel like they have a voice, right. And just how powerful. That can be you know, and sometimes I can be a really vocal advocate. And I, you know what, I was born a fighter and I'm going to keep fighting.
I had to fight for my own life from the day. From the day I was born, that snow storm in December and not in a negative way, like some other adult preemies have said, I don't want to fight anymore.
I am using it in a positive way. I want. Everyone to be the best they can be, and learn, this is still totally, I feel like just a wee baby in this journey still and learning still every day how to do it with love and compassion and kindness.
Mary Coughlin: It's, it's so funny that you just said the word compassion because when you were sharing the the words of Kristen Neff were coming up, it's about being, having fierce compassion.
That fierce compassion is that mama bear compassion, right? I mean, This is important and I've got to take this all the way, [00:32:00] sorry, but don't get in my way because this is, I am that fiercely committed and passionate about the compassion that I feel for those that I can serve.
At my highest. And so, yeah, I mean, this is you, my friend. This is you, girlfriend. And I'm so I am
Chantel Morin: Mama Bear, you betcha.
Mary Coughlin: Ah, you are Mama Bear. That's right. Okay, so we just have just a few minutes and I don't want to overstay my welcome. If there's, is there one nugget of wisdom or insight That you've gleaned over the years of your career thus far, what would that nugget wisdom or insight be that you'd like to share with the world right now?
Chantel Morin: I think the one thing through my becoming a trauma informed professional journey, that, Hit home with me the most and keep sticking with me and keep coming back to me with Maya Angelou that people will often forget what you say and forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel and that's just again coming back [00:33:00] to being kind because you don't know what someone else has been through you don't know their story You don't know nobody would know look at any of my kids Like, I don't know a life without trauma.
That's just been my life. And that's who I am and that's just shaped me who I've become. But I was fortunate to be in a life full of love and kindness. And so just, I think it really is if we are all just a wee bit more kind in our day, the world would be that better place.
Mary Coughlin: It absolutely would be.
And what a beautiful sentiment to wrap up this episode. Chantelle, thank you so very much.
